DUNE Movie: Thoughts, Opinions, and Impressions

Clint_L

Legend
Dune 2 better than dune 1. Its a good movie but not great but maybe it’s the books fault

The villians/heroes don’t get me emotionally invested
The bad guy dies.
Good mentor dies
Hero wins

Honestly the 2 villians did horrible things but don’t shine like the black panther villian, thanos henchman that hurts some avengers, or thanos or really good villians. There was no cheering or anything felt
Same with the heroes-sure I was worried they could die but there was no emotion behind it

I think both actors were capable of it but they didn’t drag me into it

The whole race argument and false messiah is just projection. He was able to accomplish things that most couldn’t
They were villains because they were evil. Born bad, I tells yuh!

To be honest, House Harkonen (or whatever) really confuses me. Are they basically a sub-species of hairless, albino sociopaths? Like, how does their planet run? Are there Harkonen shopkeepers and preschool teachers and stuff? Or is it basically like Mordor?

Anyhow, yeah, stock villains. Just there to be really depraved and spare us having to worry about the morality of killing them all. The movie is not really a thinker.
 

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To be honest, House Harkonen (or whatever) really confuses me. Are they basically a sub-species of hairless, albino sociopaths? Like, how does their planet run? Are there Harkonen shopkeepers and preschool teachers and stuff? Or is it basically like Mordor?

The short answer to this is that the movie shows the aristocracy, not how most planets run on a more basic, day-to-day level. This is kind of like asking what it was like to be a French peasant based off of watching Dangerous Liaisons.

If you want to discuss further, there are a lot of hints and details buried in there about what life is probably like for the lower castes, but I'll probably have trouble remembering what I got from the movie(s) and what I got from the books.
 
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MGibster

Legend
To be honest, House Harkonen (or whatever) really confuses me. Are they basically a sub-species of hairless, albino sociopaths? Like, how does their planet run? Are there Harkonen shopkeepers and preschool teachers and stuff? Or is it basically like Mordor?
I imagine there are merchants, teachers, etc., etc. on Giedi Prime but the movie isn't focused on pedagogy in in the year 10,191. Same reason why we don't get a glipse of regular Federation life outside of Starfleet in the first Star Trek series. By the last Dune book, the last one by Herbert I mean, thousands of years have passed and the Harkonnens aren't the same as they used to be.
 

Stalker0

Legend
What I saw was a young man that wanted revenge. The Fremen were a tool to achieve that goal. I don't think he cared that much about them.
I would argue that Paul's constant pulling away from going south throughout most of the movie was his attempts to avoid mass death, and it was only when the fremen were slaughtered that he finally gave in and decided he had to commit to that path to save them.

Now did Paul want revenge, absolutely, but I think he resisted that impulse (or at least satiated it with the raids). Ultimately he made a choice that saved the fremen, but resulted in the slaughter of billions of other people in the process.
 

Stalker0

Legend
One thing I liked about the Dune movies was the "show don't tell" focus. I think the movie really trusts the audience to pick up on the subtles of the movie.

That said, there is one thing I do think was a "miss", and that is the notion that lasers and shields create crazy explosions. Again the movie does this very subtly. For example in dune 2 we see a Freman ambush on a Harkonen spice miner. They work to take out the shielded ornithopter before finally using laser weapons to take out the miner.

Now without the understanding of how lasers work that makes no sense. Why wouldn't you just laser away at the miner right off the bat, start lasering the troops, etc. But once you understand the interaction you get why that tactic was perfectly done in the movie. It was one were a 1 sentence drop in somewhere in the first movie would have gone a long way.
 

Bacon Bits

Legend
Sorry, missed this response.

Paul is definitely a messiah figure, but there is no mention of his skin color in the book. His father and grandfather are described as having dark/olive skin, same as some of the Fremen and others, including (I assume) the Emperor. But for most characters, including Paul, Jessica, and the Baron, we don't what color is their skin.

Skin color isn't important in the book because it's not particularly useful for coding because books aren't a visual medium. If we look at the coding that is present in the book for Paul: He has a Christian first name, a Greek last name, and he's the son of Duke Leto. Duke being a European title, and Leto being an Italian name. The religious leaders are known as Reverend Mother, and their holy book is the Orange Catholic Bible. Meanwhile, the Fremen are desert nomads, and use terms like "jihad" and "Madhi." They call their religious leaders Sayyadina, which is rooted in the Arabic and Muslim term Sayyid used as an honorific title for the family of the Prophet Mohammed. They are very clearly coded as Arabic or Muslim or both. Just like spice is coded like cocaine, like pepper and nutmeg, and like crude oil all at once.

Once we move to the movie, however, we see a difference. Suddenly skin color is quite relevant to coding because we lose some of this other coding simply because the characters don't constantly use these terms like the book has to. It's something the actors can't hide. It's as much a part of their costume as anything else. The major characters that have a dark complexion that are not Fremen are Leto and Duncan Idaho and Thufir Howat, each of which are characters that in the book seek to bridge the gap between the off-world Atreides and the Fremen to block the Emperor's plan. What's more, when we see that Harkonen, they're often marble white and literally bathe in black oil spice. This is not a subtle metaphor for this movie. And who is the one with the darkest skin? None other than Liet-Kynes, the Fremenest Fremen who Fremens. Also Jamis, who also rejects Paul. Meanwhile Stilgar and Chani are, like Leto, Thufir, and Duncan, both middle brown complexion and they eventually become two of Paul's strongest allies.

The big exception is the Emperor's Herald of the Change, portrayed by Benjamin Clementine. However, that character is literally in the movie to be an embodiment of the Emperor's deception. Of course his physical appearance is false.

So, yeah, I think skin color is extremely important to the Dune movies, and I don't think Villeneuve is really trying to be that subtle about it.

Personally, I believe that more than 10 000 years of bloodlines manipulations by the Bene Gesserit makes mapping skin colours of the people in the Dune universe to the current day ethnicities and related economic/cultural/political dynamics kind of a moot point, at least to the main characters who all come from the noble families which were the focus of BG breeding program.

I never got the impression that skin color was a factor in Herbert's message, while religion, ideology, and social status had everything to do with it. Paul is disruptive to the Fremen not because of his skin color, but because he is the messiah. And Fremen are vulnerable to this due to blindly following a religion in the first place. So they fall prey first to the Keyneses and then to Paul. Even the BP Missionaria Protectiva builds on the underlying substrate of the Fremen original religion, twisting it so that the saviour they were waiting for would match the Kwisatz Haderach.

I don't think it's useful or meaningful to try interpret the movies as though they're not adaptations. That is to say, that the artists that made the movies aren't going to use their talents to express the themes and ideas using just the visual aspects of the film even if they're not literally textual in the books.

So, saying, "Well Herber didn't do this..." is a little weird if we're talking about the movies. Yeah, Herbert didn't do it, but Villeneuve did.
 

Two "um, actually"s for you here.

Skin color isn't important in the book because it's not particularly useful for coding because books aren't a visual medium. If we look at the coding that is present in the book for Paul: He has a Christian first name, a Greek last name, and he's the son of Duke Leto. Duke being a European title, and Leto being an Italian name.

The Atreides in the book are coded more Spanish than anything else. The bull fighting, Caladan/Catalonia, etc.

And who is the one with the darkest skin? None other than Liet-Kynes, the Fremenest Fremen who Fremens.

Kynes is only half Fremen. One Fremen parent, one Imperial parent.
 

Kaodi

Hero
Conspicuously the one person who is not marble white and bald is Lady Jessica, the actually daughter of His Marbley White Baldness. So I am pretty sure it is some cultural naughty word they are doing there.
 

payn

I don't believe in the no-win scenario
Conspicuously the one person who is not marble white and bald is Lady Jessica, the actually daughter of His Marbley White Baldness. So I am pretty sure it is some cultural naughty word they are doing there.
Actually, I think it has to do with the sun around the Harokonen homeworld. Jessica didnt live there.
 

Bacon Bits

Legend
Kynes is only half Fremen. One Fremen parent, one Imperial parent.
You're still thinking that race in the movies is an analog for race in the movie's universe. That is incorrect. The movies use race -- skin complexion, really -- as a metaphor for cultural allegiances. The darker you are, the more culturally and politically aligned you are with the Fremen. The whiter you are, the more culturally and politically aligned you are against the Fremen. That's why Paul is so pale; he uses the Fremen. He's not the Madhi. He exploits that ancient Bene Gesserit myth to build an army to conquer Arrakis and take the Imperial throne. That's Paul and Jessica's plan. And Paul doesn't save Arrakis after becoming Emperor. He destroys it.

The other mistake people keep making in this thread is similar to what Folding Ideas called The Thermian Argument. The Harkonens are not pale because the star that their homeworld orbits is a certain way. No, the star that Geidi Prime orbits is the way that it is so that the Harkonens can have pale skin so that they fit into the color palette themes that the movie uses. It's all fictional and the director can change the star as easily as change the characters. So the themes and symbols do not arise out of the characters and setting. The characters and setting are purpose-built to serve needs of the themes and symbols. Because the entire story of Dune only exists at all to be a platform for those ideas that Herbert had that come from the themes and ideas.

This isn't deep or rare storytelling, either. It's pretty common. Luke Skywalker's father is not Darth Vader because Anakin Skywalker slept with Padme. No. Luke Skywalker's father is Darth Vader because it triggers an identity crisis in Luke. The rest of the continuity warps around Lucas's decision to trigger that identity crisis. Bruce Wayne's parents being killed did not cause him to become the Batman. The need for an origin to justify the kind of man that Batman is demands a trauma like seeing his parents killed in front of him. The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly doesn't accidentally builds to the three-way stand-off. Everything that happens before the climax of the story s written to guarantee that that showdown happens. Stories are written backwards and upside-down. Then when they're told our minds fool us into thinking that time moves in one direction. That's the trick of storytelling.

Just like we design set piece encounters in TTRPGs as the GM, authors and directory devise set pieces in their stories. They conform the reality of the fictional world to make it work.
 

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