Dungeon 146

[diaglo]

I'm subscribing because I don't like paying $8 an issue and I wanted to make sure I got all of the STAP.

Having worked in comic book retail & wholesale for several years I can understand both fans and publishers positions. Fans can never have it fast enough, while if there's any delays publishers (and retailers) get reamed out for it.

I can tell from most people's postings on this board that there's something else going on and Paizo really doesn't want to address this with us because it's a business issue. But when we know that some subscribers are getting issues weeks before others, and that we both paid the same amount of money, Paizo need to consider other jobbers when contracts come up for renewal. Maybe raising rates a little more on subs, say $5 an issue instead of $4, would help get all of us better delivery service.

all paizo needs to do is change their policy.
from saying we will receive our purchase 2 weeks to... saying 4 weeks.

 

[Shemeska]

Well the fluff text on the klurichir states that "if balors have nightmares, it's a klurichir".

And it was always intended to be tougher than a balor

The klurichir always struck me as an attempt to be a molydeus before the molydeus had been officially converted into 3.x. In my opinion the klurichir is to the molydeus what Union in the ELH was to Sigil. There's far too much of a flavor overlap, and some "but this goes to 11" going on without enough true detail and depth to give the klurichir enough of an identity of its own for me to like it as is (but I'd appreciate the critter getting the overhaul it needs to salvage it).

The molydei can play along with balors in many ways, and given that the molydei are empowered by and acting directly on the behalf of Abyssal Lords, they're going to make a balor pause and reconsider. The klurichir lacks that, and if you're going to make something stronger than a balor, you need to give it the flavor to justify it, otherwise it'll look like unjustified power creep without anything to make me like the fiend in question. James moved in the right direction when he downgraded the sucker's CR for FC:I.

 

[bento]

all paizo needs to do is change their policy.
from saying we will receive our purchase 2 weeks to... saying 4 weeks.

Or fudge the date they're sending it out by a few more days. That way those that got it on time think they're early and those that get them a few weeks later think they're on time.

 

[Erekose13]

all paizo needs to do is change their policy.
from saying we will receive our purchase 2 weeks to... saying 4 weeks.

its 8 to 12 in Canada for subscribers.

 

[Razz]

The klurichir always struck me as an attempt to be a molydeus before the molydeus had been officially converted into 3.x. In my opinion the klurichir is to the molydeus what Union in the ELH was to Sigil. There's far too much of a flavor overlap, and some "but this goes to 11" going on without enough true detail and depth to give the klurichir enough of an identity of its own for me to like it as is (but I'd appreciate the critter getting the overhaul it needs to salvage it).

The molydei can play along with balors in many ways, and given that the molydei are empowered by and acting directly on the behalf of Abyssal Lords, they're going to make a balor pause and reconsider. The klurichir lacks that, and if you're going to make something stronger than a balor, you need to give it the flavor to justify it, otherwise it'll look like unjustified power creep without anything to make me like the fiend in question. James moved in the right direction when he downgraded the sucker's CR for FC:I.

I agree with the right information being present to back up the klurichir's power over the balor. I just feel it's silly to downgrade a demon just because of a bias towards wanting the balor to be the mightiest demon in D&D.

The only reason it got pegged down to CR 17 was because it's ability scores as present in Fiend Folio were much lower than the balor's in the 3.5 Monster Manual. And the fact it's abilities were out of whack. Some were CR 15, some CR 17 worthy, others CR 20, and others CR 25 worthy. I agree it needs fixing, but not an overhaul. I like the vorpal pincers, four arms, 10th-level sorceror spells, it's vast array of spell-like abilities, and I'd like the revision to give it an outrageous set of ability scores to rival, if not exceed, that of a balor.

Pretty much, I'd like to see the klurichir revised but remain a CR 25 creature. Balors are overdone and overrated, personally. And, again, I think they should be revised with no bias as James has shown with the balor.

It's D&D and D&D has a myriad of possibilities and, with the way the Abyss works, I really think it fits the scope of the Abyss churning out a demon that rivals the balor. There are a few similarities with the klurichir and the molydeus but the two differ vastly in ability and strengths. It could even be that the klurichir is a more higher and powerful form of the molydeus.

 

[Nightfall]

Razz,

I can't believe you sited that...cruddy piece of thingie aka War of the Spider Queen series. I mean come on!

 

[James Jacobs]

I agree with the right information being present to back up the klurichir's power over the balor. I just feel it's silly to downgrade a demon just because of a bias towards wanting the balor to be the mightiest demon in D&D.

The only reason it got pegged down to CR 17 was because it's ability scores as present in Fiend Folio were much lower than the balor's in the 3.5 Monster Manual. And the fact it's abilities were out of whack. Some were CR 15, some CR 17 worthy, others CR 20, and others CR 25 worthy. I agree it needs fixing, but not an overhaul. I like the vorpal pincers, four arms, 10th-level sorceror spells, it's vast array of spell-like abilities, and I'd like the revision to give it an outrageous set of ability scores to rival, if not exceed, that of a balor.

Pretty much, I'd like to see the klurichir revised but remain a CR 25 creature. Balors are overdone and overrated, personally. And, again, I think they should be revised with no bias as James has shown with the balor.

It's D&D and D&D has a myriad of possibilities and, with the way the Abyss works, I really think it fits the scope of the Abyss churning out a demon that rivals the balor. There are a few similarities with the klurichir and the molydeus but the two differ vastly in ability and strengths. It could even be that the klurichir is a more higher and powerful form of the molydeus.

More to the point, throughout something like 30 years, the balor's been the toughest non-unique demon. Sure, it's easy to build a tougher demon, but is it necessary? I don't think it is. There's value in tradition, and throwing tradition out the window just to outdo what's been pretty established in D&D lore strikes me as disrespectful. Which is why I'd rather see the klurichir as a tough but not tougher than the toughest demon. And as Shemeska pointed out, the role of that demon is the already-established molydeus.

I'm not biased toward the balor. I'm biased toward D&D tradition.

 

[diaglo]

I'm not biased toward the balor. I'm biased toward D&D tradition.

yup, going back to OD&D.. you know before the Advanced and Basic ones.

diaglo "still remembers the Balor as a true name" Ooi

 

[James Jacobs]

Very cool. I hope you can throw in a Myrmyxicus as well.

I noticed that the Wastrilith demon was different in Dungeon. It did not have the Summon Monster IX as a 17th level caster. I'm guessing that you guys took some liberties to get it to the right CR. I was hoping you could do the same to the Klurichur and Myrmyxicus. Perhaps its vorpal bite can attack as a separate entity, much like the molydeus snakebite. Also, it would be great if the Myrmyxicus could actually attack with both its scythes and natural attacks in the same round.

Since the adventure will soon be going into the Abyss, I'm hoping to see some wild stuff. Spirited Charging Armanites, Marilith Dervishes, Marshal Succubi, Nalfeshnee weilding wands of enervation, Warchanter Lilitu. There's no end to the possibilities of the Abyss.

Wastriliths can be summoned by a summon monster IX spell, but the one in this adventure can't summon them. Actually, the secret fact is that we just forgot to add that ability into his stat block (oops!), but not having that ability handy doesn't really hurt him that much.

As for demons with crazy prestige classes... yup! There will indeed be some of that coming up as well. The marilith dervish won't be, though... that one ended up in another freelance project that I worked on that's coming out later in the year from WotC.

 

[Shemeska]

It's D&D and D&D has a myriad of possibilities and, with the way the Abyss works, I really think it fits the scope of the Abyss churning out a demon that rivals the balor.

In response to that I should add one thing to what I said earlier. I don't have a problem with the Abyss fomenting the creation of a class of demons more powerful than balors, but I do have a problem with the creation of groups of tanar'ri more powerful than balors. Other "species" of demons, be they obyriths, loumara, elder species of varrangoin, subtypes of bebeliths, etc might very well have castes that rival or exceed the power of balor tanar'ri, but they belong to different ecologies, have different origins, behave by different rules of promotion/advancement, etc.

If the klurichir is a tanar'ri, it should operate within the paradoxical "rules" that the tanar'ri castes evolve within. The balor as the highest rank of non-unique tanar'ri is firmly enmeshed there either by the process of tanar'ri metaphysical evolution within the Abyss, or perhaps even something written into their basic core substance by their Obyrith creators or their native plane. Something breaking that needs to have a majorly awsome backstory to justify it (which the klurichir's milligram or two of flavor text lacks) or it needs to be something that isn't a tanar'ri.

And that's just the arguments based on in-game flavor, much less as James said, the desire to adhere to the balor's decades of tradition as the most powerful unique tanar'ri.