Dungeon #150

[Rauol_Duke]

Of course, you can choose not to participate for any of a number reasons, I suppose, although much of what I'm hearing seems to indicate that many people won't simply out of some kind of...I hate to say it really...childish and petty kind of anger toward Wizards of the Coast. How dare they decide to publish their own magazines? How dare they try something different to perhaps reach out to a different audience? Yes, even how dare they try to make more money.

Well, maybe you've been fortunate enough to have seen or had access to the online versions of Dungeon & Dragon than those of us who are more childish and petty; but in may case at least, I've seen alot more of what Paizo has to offer me in the years to come than WotC has shown me (which is to say: next to nothing). So, my limited funds for gaming will go to the products that I, 1.) know about and are informed of, and 2.) choose to buy - not out of loyalty to a given company (although Paizo has done a fantastic job over the years) and most certainly not out of spite towards WotC for taking Dungeon & Dragon back "in house".

Once I know something about the online versions, I may feel differently - who knows...

 

[Wolfspider]

Well, maybe you've been fortunate enough to have seen or had access to the online versions of Dungeon & Dragon than those of us who are more childish and petty; but in may case at least, I've seen alot more of what Paizo has to offer me in the years to come than WotC has shown me (which is to say: next to nothing). So, my limited funds for gaming will go to the products that I, 1.) know about and are informed of, and 2.) choose to buy - not out of loyalty to a given company (although Paizo has done a fantastic job over the years) and most certainly not out of spite towards WotC for taking Dungeon & Dragon back "in house".

Once I know something about the online versions, I may feel differently - who knows...

You do know something about the online versions. They will include articles along the lines of those seen in the print versions. These articles will be written by the same authors that contributed to the print versions (that is, open submission).

I just don't see why people can't give WotC as much benefit of the doubt with the online versions of Dragon and Dungeon as they seem willing to give Paizo with Pathfinder. After all, you DO know quite a bit more than "next to nothing" about what WotC can offer. After all, they've been publishing D&D books for a while now....

Anyway, I didn't mean to insult anyone (although your anger is telling--the change over to digital format is quite contentious). I'm just an optimistic guy, at least when it comes to to the Digital Initiative and the online "magazines."

 

[Wolfspider]

If it were only as simple as you make it out to be. If they continued the "magazine" there would be less complaints. Many of us, pro & con to the issue, don't consider online content branded with the Dragon & Dungeon names to be a magazine.

I doubt there are many that have an issue with "doing something different." The issue is when that decision comes at the expense of something that many support and want.

Not to tread in the issues again. However, this is by far an oversimplification.

I know it's an oversimplification. It's just that all the wailing about Dungeon being over seems a bit premature....

Anyway, that's all I have to say about the issue. Please continue with the weeping and gnashing of teeth. I'm sure I have some sackcloth and ashes around here somewhere, in cases someone forgot to bring theirs....

 

[Rauol_Duke]

You do know something about the online versions. They will include articles along the lines of those seen in the print versions. These articles will be written by the same authors that contributed to the print versions (that is, open submission).

And that's about it - they have said that it will include the same kinds of articles. We know that they plan to do those things, but we haven't really seen anything.

Have we seen blogs and PDF samples of what the layout will look like? No. But we have with Pathfinder ...

Have we seen concept art and maps of the upcoming features. No. But we have with Pathfinder

Have employees of WotC been going out of their way to answer questions about the upcoming releases and even had their Marketing Director post a campaign journal of his playtest of the upcoming first issue. No. But Paizo has...

And contrary to your post, I'm not angry with anyone, I've just made my decision based on what I've seen. When WotC shows us something, then my buying options could change... but it's going to have to be pretty good to compete with what I've already been impressed by. Is that wrong?

 

[coyote6]

You do know something about the online versions. They will include articles along the lines of those seen in the print versions. These articles will be written by the same authors that contributed to the print versions (that is, open submission).

That doesn't tell us much. Open submissions doesn't mean the articles will be by the same people, or that the articles will be as good. It might be many of the same people, or it might not be (e.g., will the same people be continuing the Demonomicon? Will new writers do as good a job? More importantly for me, will it be to my tastes, as the recent run has been?)

Also, the editors and publishers have an effect on the quality of the 'zine, and the electronic Dragon & Dungeon won't have the same editors or publishers as the just-canceled print magazines did. Dragon has had good periods, and not-so-good periods; the e-versions may be as good as the print magazines at their best, or even better; or they could be even more boring, bland, and/or bad as the print magazines at their worst. We can't know until they are published.

(And if they don't have some sort of substantive previews, a la Pyramid Online or Pathfinder, we won't be able to tell how good or bad they are without paying.)

 

[Treebore]

Two things really bug me about how WOTC has handled canceling Dungeon and Dragon. Lack of information and communication with the existing fan base.

Stopping publication.

See, I have a choice in todays market. I can give my business to a company who ignores me and does what they want and expects me to sit here patiently like a pet dog.

Or I can give my support to a company that takes the time to communicate their plans and not leave me in the dark.

Paizo, Green Ronin, Troll Lord Games, Goodman Games, and Necromancer Games win my support.

WOTC does not.

Simple as that.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Dungeon is not over, folks.

Correct. Pathfinder arose from its ashes.

Of course, you can choose not to participate for any of a number of reasons, I suppose, although much of what I'm hearing seems to indicate that many people won't simply out of some kind of...I hate to say it really...childish and petty kind of anger toward Wizards of the Coast. How dare they decide to publish their own magazines? How dare they try something different to perhaps reach out to a different audience? Yes, even how dare they try to make more money.

One of the perqs of being an adult these past 25 years is that I control the money I earn. I choose where to spend it and where not to - for motives which may seem entirely irrational to somebody else - or even to me. I must answer now and then to my wife about it - but nobody else.

In short, I'm perfectly entitled to choose to "punish" a decision that greatly offended my goodwill for a brand to which I had an abiding affection and a deep attachment. That's the free market in action. WotC knew I - and many others like me - existed before they decided to pull the plug. They figured me - and people like me - were ultimately a dead end business and that we were no longer the customers they wanted.

And WotC, like me, gets to spend their money where they like in pursuit of goals that they don't have to explain to anybody but their shareholder, Hasbro.

And when it comes to money and how we spend it, that's pretty much as far as "community" goes. Morrus asks for money cause he's in a jam? I'll forward it on. But a wholly owned subsidiary of a publicly traded company does not get that same privilege.

(Nope. I'm still not mollified in the slightest - nor apologetic for it in the least... I plan to stay that way for a good long time, too.)

 

[JustKim]

I'm curious about Pathfinder and willing to give it a shot, but man, this marketing machine is coming on a little strong, isn't it? I open the magazine to a random page and it's Pathfinder. I place an order and it's Pathfinder. I visit a message board and it's Pathfinder. I opted to receive Emails from Paizo, and customer service cannot stop telling me about Pathfinder.

A week ago: Pathfinder is the new Dungeon! Don't forget Pathfinder!
Three days ago: Pathfinder is called Pathfinder Chronicles! It's a chronicle! With paths to find!
Yesterday: Pathfinder is here! It's shipping next week! Oh my god!
Today: Pathfinder subscriptions! Are you subscribed to Pathfinder? It's delicious!

I know this is very exciting for Paizo, but this kind of enthusiasm cannot be good for your blood pressure.

 

[Razz]

I totally agree with Wolfspider on the issue.

WotC has already explained their reason why they can't say much. They're under NDA and it simply was not the right time to announce it. But they had to.

If they had it their way, they would've announced it all at GenCon when the last issues came in. But they couldn't wait until then, for business reasons on both ends, so they had to release the news early. More information is coming in a couple of weeks.

What you people seem to lack is patience. Give them the time they need. They stated themselves that they're still working out the kinks.

What I find ironic is the same people bashing WotC are the same ones buying their newest release to enhance their D&D games...and the same people playing their games. Yes, there are things I wish WotC did and they don't and probably never will do. But I don't boycott buying all their products because of it. I am upset Dragon and Dungeon are gone. I agree leaving it an online-only thing is unfair for some.

I really don't want 4E to ever come in my lifetime, but it's going to happen anyway. Does that mean I should bash WotC and call them uncaring and unprofessional because of it? Does that mean I should stop buying WotC products now because they're going to one day release a whole new edition of a game that I believe has nothing horrifyingly wrong with it? (at least, not anything wrong that the gamers themselves can't easily fix with house rules, Unearthed Arcana, and 3rd party products)

I'm going to support the online Dragon and Dungeon just like I supported the print version. If everything's going to be the same, I don't have to worry about content and quality. What they really snagged me on was the word "MORE" because they're not limited by print. I'm a sucker for MORE of the same stuff I was originally getting. Most people should be. Sure, a nice soft copy of a magazine in your hands is a great feeling, but in the long run I really don't think the lot of us would like to haul off 300+ magazines everywhere we go. At least I don't. (If you do, then, that's really strange but more power to ya)

That's how good Dragon/Dungeon was. They were great enough to want to lug them around. When I went out to DM, I would do my best to take with me as many of my magazines as I could so the players can look through them for inspiration and fun during sessions or after sessions. Of course, the logical thing would be to have them game at my house, but circumstances sometimes come up and you're stuck leaving the "headquarters" of your gaming table. But I also have 80+ D&D books to lug about as well.

Electronic formats have their advantages. They're just gearing up for the future. It won't be long before laptops are affordable and everyone has Internet connection. Then all of this wouldn't be so bad. There's already a city wiring itself up so the entire city has wireless connection! And I am pretty sure WotC said your stuff can be PRINTED. Sure, costs for ink would be horrendous, maybe, but I don't think you'd be printing EVERYTHING in the DI. Just what you need for your games.

I hope the reason no one is giving DI the benefit of the doubt is not because you're no longer able to read the magazine while you're sitting on the toilet...

 

[humble minion]

I'm curious about Pathfinder and willing to give it a shot, but man, this marketing machine is coming on a little strong, isn't it? I open the magazine to a random page and it's Pathfinder. I place an order and it's Pathfinder. I visit a message board and it's Pathfinder. I opted to receive Emails from Paizo, and customer service cannot stop telling me about Pathfinder.

A week ago: Pathfinder is the new Dungeon! Don't forget Pathfinder!
Three days ago: Pathfinder is called Pathfinder Chronicles! It's a chronicle! With paths to find!
Yesterday: Pathfinder is here! It's shipping next week! Oh my god!
Today: Pathfinder subscriptions! Are you subscribed to Pathfinder? It's delicious!

I know this is very exciting for Paizo, but this kind of enthusiasm cannot be good for your blood pressure.

It's understandable, when you think about it from their perspective.

Dungeon and Dragon have been Paizo's lifeblood for a long time. I'd be surprised if any of their other products pull in anything like as consistent a revenue stream. Paizo has become a pretty significant player in d20 on the back of their success with Dungeon and Dragon and is going to hurt, big time, when they wind up. Paizo (as seen from my point of strictly limited knowledge) really REALLY needs Pathfinder to work, or they risk trailing off into industry afterthoughtness. They'll be competing with WotC's DI for both customers and writing talent. It's going to be tough - I for one sure as hell can't blame them for trying to get the word out as loudly as possible as early as possible...