[Dungeon] Dungeon/Polyhedron Goes Monthly

[Ranger REG]

Sorry if I sound hostile, but I found this comment somewhat offensive.

Only if you felt that he has put you in the same category as those who screamed "Scew Poly!"

If you feel you do not belong in that group, then you shouldn't feel offended.

Trust me, when argument is heated as it is now, moderate individuals like us are put in one of two divided camps: Pro-Dungeon and Pro-Polyhedron. There is no gray area for moderates.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

I have been buying Dungeon since 3e came out and have enjoyed in greatly. I did not care when they added Poly, but I don't use it. This does not mean I hate Poly but that I don't use it. I also have limited time/money to spend on RPG and will spend it when I feel I am getting value for my money. $8 for 100 pages of material I like is definitely worth it. $7 for 67 pages is still a acceptable to me. $7 for 33 pages or $14 for 100 pages is something I would rather not spend money on when I can spend this same money on 1-2 d20 books from other d20 publishers in the course of a year that I will use. I would even go to $10 for 100 pages but no more.

I don't want Dungeon or Poly to fail, but at the same time I have to decide wether I want to spend money to support a magazine I don't want. So what I am going to do is just buy the 2/3 Dungeon issues and still spend the other money on 3e but support other publishers that produce material I do want. If this means that Dungeon fails I will mourn the loss but will continue to support 3e with my money, it just means that I will be able to buy more from other publishers that produce what I want.

As for the bonus pages for subscribers, I will miss them since I will continue to support my FLGS. I feel that it is unfortunate that I will be punished for supporting a locally owned establishment that could really use my money. A loss of 16 pages is definitely worth it to me though if I will be able to continue to have a wide variety of d20 products to purchase locally.

 

[BryonD]

I hope this clears up some of the confusion. I'm not even getting into our ad counts and how much more edit we include in an issue than your "typical" football magazine, nor the odd comparison between football and golf (two distinctly different sports that don't apply to one another, although football-golf would be a sporting event I'd pay to see), and Dungeon, a D&D magazine, and Polyhedron, a d20 magazine. We know that the vast majority of our readers have figured out that Polyhedron content can virtually all be imported into a D&D campaign.

Sorry, I still find that Poly brings nothing to my D&D games. It is as distinctly different as football and golf. Maybe I am the only person in the world to feel this way. I am simply providing my opinion. (And please don't insult my intelligence by saying that I am simply not trying. If I want a magazine that can be adapted to my D&D games, I would get National Geograohic before Poly)

Please feel free to reject my opinion from your consideration if you are convinced that it is odd.

All told, that's an increase of 36 pages over two months

Great!!!.

It is also a price increase of 133%. Not great. No sale.

But would you buy an 80-page adventure for $14? Could you even find one for $14? What about a 32-page adventure?

No, I would not.
I buy very few adventures. Contrary to the slam a couple pages back, I do not enjoy Dungeon because of any limitation in my ability to invent my own campaign material.
I enjoyed it because for a good price I could get a nice variety of ideas to scavange from.
I rarely used any of the adventures as is. But I often would steal a map from one, an NPC from another, a magic item or plot idea from another.
I also found the enjoyment of reading the short adventures worth the relatively small cost.

It's fine to wish for things the way they were, but now that we actually keep track of the magazine's numbers, and it needs to make money to stay in business, the "glory days" of paying so little for so much have to remain a memory.

Fair enough.

But why is the Polyhedron/Dungeon staff reacting in such an offended manner to my opinion? You requested it.

Trust me, when argument is heated as it is now, moderate individuals like us are put in one of two divided camps: Pro-Dungeon and Pro-Polyhedron. There is no gray area for moderates.

I think you have it correctly, Ranger REG.

That is to bad, because I simply consider myself a pro-dungeon up to a certain value guy, and completely neutral on poly.
But for that I get hit with little snippy comments and told it is my fault for not trying hard enough.

Oh well.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

But would you buy an 80-page adventure for $14? Could you even find one for $14? What about a 32-page adventure?

Dungeon 96: $8 for 71/89 pages of adventures (Excluding letters and ads) = 11.25c per page
Dungeon 95: $8 for 69/99 pages of adventures (Excluding letters and ads) = 11.6c per page
Sunless Citadel: $10 for 32 pages (No ads) = 31.25c per page
Forge of Fury: $10 for 32 pages (No ads) = 31.25c per page
Bastion of Broken Souls: $10 for 48 pages (No ads) = 20.8c per page
Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil: $30 for 207 pages (+2 pages of ads) = 14.5c per page
The Banewarrens: $18 for 127 pages (+1 page of ads) = 14.2c per page.
Theoretical 80 page adventure for $14 = 17.5c per page
Proposed 50/67 pages for $7 = 14c per page
Proposed 20/33 pages for $7 = 35c per page
Theoretical stand alone Dundeon 70/100 pages for $10 = 14.2c page.

Yes the current format of Dungeon has the lowest cost per page of adventure, but you also have advertising to reducing this cost. I would also argue that not all of Dungeon is usable as there is always at least 1 adventure that I don't like. Note however that the theoretical 80 pages for $14 comes out more expensive than the mega-adventures which only have nominal advertising and only slightly less than the Bastion of Broken Souls. Yes Dungeon is glossy and color, but how much real benefit is this really worth.

If you like Poly then this does work out to a great deal, if however you are like me and don't need poly (I don't hate it I just don't use it) then you are going from the best price per page for adventures to average price per page for 2/3 Dungeon issues and highest price per page for 1/3 Dungeon issues. This is why I will only buy the 2/3 Dungeon issues.

[Edit: Just checked another as well. City of the Spider Queen: $30 for 175 pages (+1 page of ads) full color glossy = 17.1c per page]

 

[Falanor]

Typically I keep quite on these matters as my view is very laid back (cept on the Annual). I like the idea, and I am gladly going to be continuing my subscription to it.

"Trust me, when argument is heated as it is now, moderate individuals like us are put in one of two divided camps: Pro-Dungeon and Pro-Polyhedron. There is no gray area for moderates." -- RangerREG

What the heck am I then? I like both magizines. When I'm in need of a random adventure idea I flip open the Dungeon side of the mag and look for a random idea and work off of it and create my own stuff. When I want to run something a bit different from what is normally run around my place (which currently is an unfortunate amount of medieval fantasy ideas) I have a good amount of information to use.

"Theoretical stand alone Dundeon 70/100 pages for $10 = 14.2c page." -- Brown Jerkin

Actually its 14.2c/10c per page.

 

[Ranger REG]

Sorry, I still find that Poly brings nothing to my D&D games. It is as distinctly different as football and golf. Maybe I am the only person in the world to feel this way. I am simply providing my opinion. (And please don't insult my intelligence by saying that I am simply not trying. If I want a magazine that can be adapted to my D&D games, I would get National Geograohic before Poly)

You mean after two years, you have never tried any d20 games from other sources (AEG, Green Ronin, Mongoose, etc.)?

Do you play any other RPG, even some that uses the same rules system (SJG's GURP, White Wolf's Storyteller, Palladium's Megaversal)?

Or are you just a strict D&D gamer when it comes to RPG?

BTW, yes, I have played other d20 games. Yes I have played other games that uses the same rules system, and while my first love will always be D&D I styled myself as a RPG hobbyist, always trying something new, even though I'm focusing on this d20 gaming.

 

[BryonD]

You mean after two years, you have never tried any d20 games from other sources (AEG, Green Ronin, Mongoose, etc.)?

Do you play any other RPG, even some that uses the same rules system (SJG's GURP, White Wolf's Storyteller, Palladium's Megaversal)?

Or are you just a strict D&D gamer when it comes to RPG?

BTW, yes, I have played other d20 games. Yes I have played other games that uses the same rules system, and while my first love will always be D&D I styled myself as a RPG hobbyist, always trying something new, even though I'm focusing on this d20 gaming.

The answer to your first question is "correct."

I used to play GURPS all the time. Both as GM and a player. I have played Vampire quite a few times, but not in a very long time.

But the only RPG I have played in the past three+ years is D&D 3E. I own CoC D20, and I would really like to play it. I own Spycraft and would really like to play it. I own D20 Modern and would really like to play it. I think I am even going to get a D20 modern side game going soon. But half my group just really wants to play D&D. I certainly don't mind playing D&D, I want to play that as much as any of the other games. So that is what we play.

My hope is that I can get them hooked on the d20 modern campaign and eventually start playing that more than once every 5 sessions. From there, perhaps I can get them to spread out even more. But I am getting way ahead of myself.

Quite simply, I have a good group and a really good D&D game going. As much as I want some variety for myself, I am completely happy to move slowly on the front to maintain the good thing I already have.

 

[Azure Trance]

JW & EM,

Thank you for keeping us updated. I only found this thread now, and found it applicable since I just subscribed to Dungeon a month ago. I love the notion of a mini-D20 game with each issue, even if I rarely if ever have the opportunity to use it. IMO, do whatever you need for the company. Less page count is a loss, but a minor one I can forgive when the magazine is looked at a whole.

Keep on trucking.

 

[Storminator]

Dungeon 96: $8 for 71/89 pages of adventures (Excluding letters and ads) = 11.25c per page
Dungeon 95: $8 for 69/99 pages of adventures (Excluding letters and ads) = 11.6c per page
Sunless Citadel: $10 for 32 pages (No ads) = 31.25c per page
Forge of Fury: $10 for 32 pages (No ads) = 31.25c per page
Bastion of Broken Souls: $10 for 48 pages (No ads) = 20.8c per page
Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil: $30 for 207 pages (+2 pages of ads) = 14.5c per page
The Banewarrens: $18 for 127 pages (+1 page of ads) = 14.2c per page.
Theoretical 80 page adventure for $14 = 17.5c per page
Proposed 50/67 pages for $7 = 14c per page
Proposed 20/33 pages for $7 = 35c per page
Theoretical stand alone Dundeon 70/100 pages for $10 = 14.2c page.
<SNIP>

Once again, you've forgotten the most appropriate comparison:

Failed magazine: 0 pages for $0 = ??c per page.

Value per page may be undefined here, but value to your game is not. That's pretty clearly zero.

PS

 

[Storminator]

Hey BryonD,

Relax man. The Dungeon/Poly argument has been going on for a while now, and some of the people involved have been hearing exactly the same arguments over and over.

When they bitch about people in general IT DOES NOT MEAN YOU!

It means everyone that's been ranting for the past year. Not all of their responses are to you. If you think they are complaining about things you didn't say...they are! Realize that this doesn't mean they're putting words in your mouth, it means they are referring to someone else.

PS