[Dungeon] Dungeon/Polyhedron Goes Monthly

[BryonD]

One of the posts, in particular, made me realize just how out of touch people were with reality. In response to the price increase, proof was raised as follows:

quote:
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Originally posted by BryonD
The oldest issues I was able to put my hands on quickly was 83 (Nov/Dec 2000) and the cover price was $5.99.
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I honestly mean no offence, Bryon, but that was 20 years ago. The fact that the price hasn't incraesed significantly (a dollar or two is not a significant increase) is a credit to Paizo. 20 years of inflation have only resulted in a net increase of $1 on the cover price, yet the quality of the magazine physically, not to mention the contents, increasing quite dramatically. The magazine as it is now is at the upper end of quality as far as printing is concerned. 20 years ago, it was at the bottom end of quality.

Um, no offense taken, but please go back and re-read what you are quoting.

The quote has nothing in the world to do with what you are attributing it to.

Bagpuss directly asked me when the price was increased to $6. That was my answer. Trying to make anything else out of that post is to take it grossly out of context.

And 20 years ago???? When you said it once I assumed it was a typo, the second time....?

You are also wrong in giving credit to Pazio on the price. I don't know what the price history was under TSR and WoTC, but one of the first things Pazio did was up the price. Granted they changed the page count and some other things, so I don't have a complaint there. I am just pointing out a simple fact. That you have given Pazio credit for not raising the price simply goes to show that (using your words ) you are out of touch with reality. (and to call a 33% increase insignificant also seems out of touch to me, not even considering that the new cost of Dungeon product is effectively up 133%)

You, like some other posters, have presented a nice little essay on why Pazio's position is valid and praiseworthy. That is all real nice and fine. I see no need to dispute it.

But it misses the point. I don't want Poly and I don't intend to spend money on it. Not a word you said begins to address this.

Calling for constructive criticism is also nice. I feel I have offered some. Though I can understand if some people have missed that in all the effort I have had to expend defending myself from comments that seem to be unhappy that I dared say anything negative. (A no, I am not claiming that I have been personally attacked or maligned, just that I have had to spend a lot of effort on defense)

And, before some says it, I understand that not all of your comments are necessarily aimed at me personally. But I am the only person you quoted and I am clearly on the side you are addressing, so this is my response.

Again, I also mean no offense.

 

[DDK]

Oops, sorry. I woke up, read thirty 'essays' in this thread, and then posted... I obviously muddled a lot of things up due to bleary eyed, mind-numbed, insanity, lol.

I retract all the things that I said that are related to all the things I got wrong. Which effectively means most of the post, lol. Again, sorry for not getting things right. I should post AFTER the coffee has kicked in

 

[BryonD]

Oops, sorry. I woke up, read thirty 'essays' in this thread, and then posted... I obviously muddled a lot of things up due to bleary eyed, mind-numbed, insanity, lol.

LOL, Been there, done that.

And anyways, most of what you said remains valid.

 

[DDK]

I thought 83 was 1983 for some dumb reason. And I couldn't recall the prices of older mags since prices here are different and I don't have any older mags to reference.

I've moved twenty-seven times in twenty-seven years due to one reason or other, mainly poverty, but in every move I've lost something. The last time I moved, I lost a stack of Dragon and Dungeon issues. I can't recall exact issue numbers or dates, but I started collecting them (mainly just Dragon, but at least a dozen Dungeons) fairly regularly from about '88 till when the editors changed over and the style of mag changed dramatically about... what, 97?

I really regret losing them. At the time it was a simply matter of having to move out very quickly and moving out on the worst possible terms with the leasee so going back would've been a bitch-fest and I decided that they were all 2nd ed. (which I loathe) anyway so... but now, I wish I had 'em all... despite system, I still used the write-ups and enjoyed reading them

Sorry... felt nostalgic.

 

[Ranger REG]

A few questions to part with for you in return. What is the Poly subscriber after? Was the choice to devote so much effort to min-games pressure from the readers or mearly an editorial choice? If the readers want min-games then the next question is moot, but did you consider droping the mini-games and going to a monthly 2/3 Dungeon 1/3 Poly 100 page monthly all the time? If you went this way I would buy every issue instead of every other. Why the huge increase in Poly coverage compared to before with little to no increase in the Dungeon coverage? How large (percentages will do) was each portion of the combined readership base before? Is there some evidence that such a lopsided benefit to only one part of you magazine will increase your readership?

I can only speak for myself, but as a new Poly subscriber since the beginning of 2002, the inclusion of d20 mini-games is the main reason why I pick up the combo magazine.

If it does not focus on mini-games or non-D&D articles, then I would find no value in Dungeon. They would not get my money, as well as those new subscribers who think the same way as I do, readership would still be the same which means Dungeon would have to end its circulation.

So think of it this way, it's a bipartisan magazine. I can tolerate Dungeon as much as I can tolerate Republicans in DC.

BTW, I think I can safely predict that readership will further expand when the first Dungeon/Polyhedron issue to feature the first Star Wars RPG-related article will appear in store shelves.

Here's a question I put to Dungeon readers: Why would I -- a 10-year RPG veteran whose first love is D&D -- find any value in Dungeon when I can create my own adventures tailored for my group?

(No offense intended, Chris Thomasson.)

 

[jaults]

Here's a question I put to Dungeon readers: Why would I -- a 10-year RPG veteran whose first love is D&D -- find any value in Dungeon when I can create my own adventures tailored for my group?

    I can only tell you why I, as a 16 year veteran of RPGs, really appreciate Dungeon. Perhaps you just have more time in your life than I do, but for me, Dungeon is a fantastic timesaver. Despite the fact that roleplaying is my primary hobby, and thus gets a significant portion of my free time, I never seem to have enough time to design as many adventures as I would like. With a fabulous wife, a 45 minute commute to a full time job, and quite a few friends that all live at least an hour away, I don't have half as much free time as I would prefer. And of course, roleplaying is my primary hobby, but not my only one.
    Given the choice between playing half as often due to lack of an adventure to run, and modifying a prewritten adventure (by a professional writer, no less) to fit the various and sundry oddities of my group, the choice is obvious.
    Oh, and while I am here anyway, I'd like to note that when I don't have an adventure prepared, I can throw together an Omega World adventure in about 20 minutes. Then we inevitably spend the next 4 hours laughing hysterically. Go, Polyhedron!

Thanks.
    Jason

 

[BryonD]

Here's a question I put to Dungeon readers: Why would I -- a 10-year RPG veteran whose first love is D&D -- find any value in Dungeon when I can create my own adventures tailored for my group?

Ok, he is my 22 year veteran response.

Maybe you can not. To me it was not that Dungeon was leaking incredible game value from every page. If that was the case, I would still plan to buy it under the new plan. But my perception of the value that was there exceeded the price I was paying.

That value did not come from running adventures out of the magazine. (which, with VERY rare exception, I never did). It came from the mish mash of inspiration. I might find a map in one adverture that fit perfectly in the story I was currently running. Or, I might just like a map so much that I would start trying to think of new ways to use that map in a future story. I might just like a character's name. Maybe there was a cool new magic item. Maybe a given NPC was really interesting to me and would become an NPC in my game. Maybe a plot device would strike me as cool. I never really knew what to expect.

And often it was more vague than any of that. I would read an issue and find myself inspired with an idea that did not clearly relate to anything in the magazine. The magazine just started a bit of an idea that goes out on a tanget and becomes something else all together.

Easily less than 10% of the stuff I come up with can be attributed to Dungeon. I have no even slight worries that my game will continue to cruise along, now that I won't have it any more. But that ten percent, combined with the simple pleasure of reading the adventures, made it worthwhile to me at the old price.

It is better than modules (which I nearly never buy) because small pieces of story from a variety of authors almost always provides more nuggets of inspiration than one story from one author.

Honestly, asking why you should find any value in Dungeon when you can create your own modules strikes me as akin to Robert Jordan asking why he should read fantasy or Stephen King asking why he should read horror. Now, if the prices for these books suddenly jumped way up, I would understand why they might decide to quit.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

I can only speak for myself, but as a new Poly subscriber since the beginning of 2002, the inclusion of d20 mini-games is the main reason why I pick up the combo magazine.

Well here we can agree to disagree about the use of the mini-games. Now if you are representitive of the Poly subscriber then sure they should keep them. Now hopefully Chris Thomasson will let us know if this is the case. It seems to me that they have a very difficult job before them since there seems to be little synergy between the two mags and each has different goals and readers.

If it does not focus on mini-games or non-D&D articles, then I would find no value in Dungeon. They would not get my money, as well as those new subscribers who think the same way as I do, readership would still be the same which means Dungeon would have to end its circulation.

The question for them is which way will they get more net subscribers. By pushing things one way or the other they are gambling that they will pick up more subscribers who like the new approach than they will lose who don't like it. If they will pick up more people like you who like the new improved Poly than they will lose to Dungeon subscribers who don't renew because they don't feel they are getting a good value then yes they made the right choice. If however they end up with a net loss then they lose thier bet and risk losing both mags. I would like to hear from Chris that some research was done and that this is not just some blind gamble based on what the editors think might work.

So think of it this way, it's a bipartisan magazine. I can tolerate Dungeon as much as I can tolerate Republicans in DC.

No comment

BTW, I think I can safely predict that readership will further expand when the first Dungeon/Polyhedron issue to feature the first Star Wars RPG-related article will appear in store shelves.

Sure you can boost individual issue sales by including something that is popular. However any Star Wars articles will apear in the 1/3 poly issues only as the 2/3 poly issues are all Mini-game. If it becomes a regular feature that boosts sales it will be because people like the 2/3 Dungeon 1/3 Poly issues that I as a Dungeon fan prefer as well. To carry that logic further if this is what boosts sales you can further boost them by getting rid of the mini-games and focusing on articles about existing popular games.

Here's a question I put to Dungeon readers: Why would I -- a 10-year RPG veteran whose first love is D&D -- find any value in Dungeon when I can create my own adventures tailored for my group?

(No offense intended, Chris Thomasson.)

jaults answered this question quite well.

 

[jonrog1]

What value is there in Dungeon? All the DM's with a day job, raise your hands -- ah, I see you already did.

Anyway, as one of the earlier, more vocal supporters of modern and off-genre D20, I applaud the Poly/Dungeon flip-flop. Our hobby was dying. If you didn't do the D&D dance, you were off on another gaming system, splitting the market, learning a new set of rules for every genre ... madness. And the entire hobby, for the casual gamer, had the image of D&D or nothing. Your average shmoe in a bookstore (a bookstore, not the FLGS) had no idea great systems like RIFTS, SHADOWRUN, etc. even existed. If our hobby picks up one extra gamer because they see PULP ADVENTURES, or another mini, I say yay.

I was in a Barnes&Noble a few months back, saw a kid about 14 pick up Dungeon, start to put it back, then notice the Mecha game on the back. He bought the mag. Not a big thing, but I was infinitely pleased at the moment.

So, balance out the possible addition of off-genre players, the added value for those of us who like off-genre gaming (I often borrow rules if not the entire mini-game) vs. the loss of value for those who want just D&D adventures.

And for that side of the equation, I have to ask -- how many adventures are we losing per year with the altered format? What is it now? Roughly four adventures per issue, 6 times a year -- 24 adventures. Say 30 adventures a year before the Poly days. Alternating formats, say two adventures in the short issues, four in the long, 12 times a year -- roughly 28 adventures. If you never read Dungeon this doesn't matter. But if you're leaving Dungeon because of some sort of "loss of value" ... was ANYONE on the PLANET using every adventure in every issue of Dungeon they got? Or, if you were just using them for inspiration, will the presence of some two dozen inspiring adventures and ideas not have roughtly the same value as thirty-odd?

And as far as the price jumps -- we're talking a total of six bucks a year when it was bi-monthly. That's not a slice of pizza and a coke at a food court. I don't throw money around, but geesh ... now that's it monthly the difference will be steep and sure, I wish the price would drop again, but I think we're spoiled. If Paizo doesn't publish these materials, nobody will. They're not jacking up the price because they're trying to get rich -- it's a frikkin' ROLE PLAYING MAGAZINE. You want to get rich, this ain't the field. They need to do it at this price to keep everybody in business, fine.

It seems to me it's the presence of off-D&D material rather than the absence of D&D material that's got some people miffed. And that's a shame.

Even if they do take a subscription hit, I applaud the company for its attempt to serve MORE of the gaming community, broadening the wide base of interests which will keep our hobby vital.

 

[Ranger REG]

Well, like I said, I can only speak for myself. I never needed Dungeon, but the Poly side is what I want. Although I do confessed, once in a while I cross over, but it is still about as low a priority to me as short fictions in Dragon magazine.

Not going to whine, not going to rant (except in defense of the new format). I'm just going to buy the next issue.