D&D (2024) Dungeons and Dragons future? Ray Winninger gives a nod to Mike Shea's proposed changes.

[dave2008]

Who uses HP and Spell Slots as the core factors for balance?

And where are the Champion's Spell slots?

This is certainly the first time I've ever seen this claim.

And it might hold water if all spells and abilities just dealt damage or healed.

This point was explained by the designers a long time ago (and been brought up on these forums several times). The designers balanced the classes around spell casters with regard to damage and hit points.

EDIT: it also included spell slots & encounters per day IIRC

 

[dave2008]

I don't know, maybe nothing, if I'd had someone to show me how.

Create a tiefling that didn't have stupid bull horns perhaps?

Didn't 4e tieflings have dragon-like horns?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Okay, I have to look up vampiric touch now...

Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, the target takes 3d6 necrotic damage, and you regain hit points equal to half the amount of necrotic damage dealt. Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action.

Up to 1 minute concentration...

compared to fireball

Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

against 2 targets you deal average 28/14 fire damage per person so 56/42/28 depending on save... how many hits does it take with 3d6 to match that? avg 11... so 3 hits over 3 rounds would deal 33 average damage but also heal you 15hp (round down each time) so in a fight that lasts 3 rounds and you can hold concenration for 3 rounds fireball is much better becuse you can still use cantrips the other 2 actions.

lets compare to a melee warlock and a melee fighter... both have 2 attacks with a long sword and we will give the fighter +1 more to hit and damage... so warlock deals 1d8+3 per hit with 6 attacks and give he fighter an action surge for 1d8+4 8 attacks... so warlock makes 7 damage per attack and fighter 8 (remember fighter his also 1 higher to hit) how many attacks need to hit? 35 damage for the warlock is if 5 out of 6 attacks hit, and 32 damage is for the fighter if 4 out of 8 attacks hit...

so over 3 rounds (useing the action surge) the fighter can if they hit with half or more of there attacks deal about as much damage as the wizard does with 1 fireball...

 

[Vaalingrade]

This point was explained by the designers a long time ago (and been brought up on these forums several times). The designers balanced the classes around spell casters with regard to damage and hit points.

I... I can't stop laughing.

That would explain so much.

 

[Parmandur]

except that math doesn't hold the moment you have spells that break HP damage expectations, or ones that shut down encounters (effectively doing infante damage)... if every SoS or SoD was based on sleep or the power words I could see this... but they aren't and you get your first SoS/SoD at level 1 spells

Experience and running the numbers belies this interpretation.

 

[dave2008]

I... I can't stop laughing.

That would explain so much.

People have reversed engineered it based on the design assumptions and at least the PHB class math has good balance. I think there are definitely arguments to be made about utility & pillar balance.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This point was explained by the designers a long time ago (and been brought up on these forums several times). The designers balanced the classes around spell casters with regard to damage and hit points.

I... I can't stop laughing.

That would explain so much.

yes this explains how badly it is balanced...

a 5th level fighter and a 5th level wizard each squar off with an oger...

• Armor Class 11 (hide armor)
• Hit Points 59 (7d10 + 21)

ac 11 the fighter can hit all day... if he is average he deals 1d8+3 but if he is super damage oppsessed he is rolling 2d6 rerolling 1s and 2s and can power attack for +14 to that... my math isn't the best but I would say that is average 23 damage... so 3 attacks over 2 rounds can kill him.

or with that -2 wis save the wizard can throw 1 tahsa's laugh and end the fight... with a single action... so that was worth 59pts of damage.

Now tbf the wizard WONT do that most times... why waste a spell slot when he can toll the dead for 2d12 (13) damage and let the fighter handle this light work....if both the wizard and fighter go before it just damage can be enough to drop it... so no need to spend a spell

 

[Parmandur]

I... I can't stop laughing.

That would explain so much.

There is a chart in the DMG for designing Spells, that gives the hit point expectfor damage or healing by Slot level. The designers have confirmed that this is the basis for the balance of every Racial, Class, or Feat ability in the game in addition to Spells. DPR is the balance factor, along with narrative balance giving each character something to be the best at in the narrative.

 

[dave2008]

yes this explains how badly it is balanced...

a 5th level fighter and a 5th level wizard each squar off with an oger...

ac 11 the fighter can hit all day... if he is average he deals 1d8+3 but if he is super damage oppsessed he is rolling 2d6 rerolling 1s and 2s and can power attack for +14 to that... my math isn't the best but I would say that is average 23 damage... so 3 attacks over 2 rounds can kill him.

or with that -2 wis save the wizard can throw 1 tahsa's laugh and end the fight... with a single action... so that was worth 59pts of damage.

Now tbf the wizard WONT do that most times... why waste a spell slot when he can toll the dead for 2d12 (13) damage and let the fighter handle this light work....if both the wizard and fighter go before it just damage can be enough to drop it... so no need to spend a spell

have you run the numbers after 6-8 encounters? You can't just look at one round or one combat. They balanced across the adventure day.

 

[Vaalingrade]

There is a chart in the DMG for designing Spells, that gives the hit point expectfor damage or healing by Slot level. The designers have confirmed that this is the basis for the balance of every Racial, Class, or Feat ability in the game in addition to Spells. DPR is the balance factor, along with narrative balance giving each character something to be the best at in the narrative.

Which makes me wonder how they designed the actual spells that are in the game without seeing that the best ones neither deal nor heal damage. And also shows that there is NO excuse for how bad combat healing is.