How about: "My god is a True God and your gods are a bunch of frauds and demons."
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Dungeons & Discourse: Atheism (and related)
- Thread starter I'm A Banana
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Bedrockgames
I post in the voice of Christopher Walken
I think it all comes down to how the setting and character define atheism and deity. There is possibly some wiggle room for the pc to regard gods as little more than powerful wizards (though under many definitions this is still a form of theism).
At the end of the day I don't think it is terribly important if the pcs fits our modern understanding of the term atheist. If you have a new and interesting way for a pc to understand the universe, the gods, magic, etc; I say run with it and don't worry about definitions too much.
At the end of the day I don't think it is terribly important if the pcs fits our modern understanding of the term atheist. If you have a new and interesting way for a pc to understand the universe, the gods, magic, etc; I say run with it and don't worry about definitions too much.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
It's interesting to think about the origins of the term. Originally, you had Christians in Rome called Atheists, for instance, not because they didn't believe in a god, but because they didn't believe in the Roman gods! They were socially godless, to the Romans -- they rejected the state religion, as much as they held to their own. So Atheism can just be a "rebellious" form of god-worship: worship of a demon lord, or perhaps the pacts of a warlock!
It's also something that got trotted out in the West partially as a response to many years of violent sectarian struggle between various Christian sects -- as a response to monotheism, which is pretty rare in D&D. Belief in no god is a little harder when there's hundreds to choose from, rather than just one! But perhaps there's a single unifying idea of the gods that our D&D atheists cannot get behind. Maybe in 4e, they doubt the official position that the gods saved the world from the primordials is rejected: maybe the atheists endeavor to undo the greatest persecution of "nonbelievers" in the cosmology!
What if the gods had a single organized Church? What if you worshiped the entire pantheon, and there were great temples that payed homage to all the gods at once -- Pelor had his shrine in there just as the Raven Queen does, just as Kord and Lolth do. In 4e's default cosmology, this even makes a degree of sense, as the gods were once all allies.
You might then have "atheists" who just reject the core pantheon -- perhaps even worship primordials? Maybe D&D style atheists are those who would take to a demon cult, or maybe every Warlock is actually a little "atheist," making pacts with unpleasant entities other than gods.
I'd imagine in this setting you might have a strong Arcane vs. Divine divide, with a powerful multi-national Grand Church of the Pantheon (perhaps rife with violent sectarian conflict, and the occasional Holy Arcanist of Ioun or something) against secretive guilds of arcane magicians, lead by Warlocks, but also in academic Wizard circles, who refuse to worship at a temple which causes such violence.
....Hmmm! Keep the ideas comin' folks!
It's also something that got trotted out in the West partially as a response to many years of violent sectarian struggle between various Christian sects -- as a response to monotheism, which is pretty rare in D&D. Belief in no god is a little harder when there's hundreds to choose from, rather than just one! But perhaps there's a single unifying idea of the gods that our D&D atheists cannot get behind. Maybe in 4e, they doubt the official position that the gods saved the world from the primordials is rejected: maybe the atheists endeavor to undo the greatest persecution of "nonbelievers" in the cosmology!
What if the gods had a single organized Church? What if you worshiped the entire pantheon, and there were great temples that payed homage to all the gods at once -- Pelor had his shrine in there just as the Raven Queen does, just as Kord and Lolth do. In 4e's default cosmology, this even makes a degree of sense, as the gods were once all allies.
You might then have "atheists" who just reject the core pantheon -- perhaps even worship primordials? Maybe D&D style atheists are those who would take to a demon cult, or maybe every Warlock is actually a little "atheist," making pacts with unpleasant entities other than gods.
I'd imagine in this setting you might have a strong Arcane vs. Divine divide, with a powerful multi-national Grand Church of the Pantheon (perhaps rife with violent sectarian conflict, and the occasional Holy Arcanist of Ioun or something) against secretive guilds of arcane magicians, lead by Warlocks, but also in academic Wizard circles, who refuse to worship at a temple which causes such violence.
....Hmmm! Keep the ideas comin' folks!
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If gods are powered by belief and worship (did this make the cut from Planescape into 4E?), and conversely, gods wane in power when they lose worshippers and believers, then aren't deities waging diplomatic warfare against their foes and actually promoting 'partial atheism'?
Evil deities should convey to their worshippers that the good gods are a bunch of frauds (ie., overpowered wizards) and spread atheist seeds of doubt to undermine the power of belief in the good gods. Good deities counter that with preaching of their godly might and hope for the people, while blasting the evil gods as bunch of petty devils/demons. Perhaps there are some devil lords and demon princes that were once gods but were successfully demoted.
Evil deities should convey to their worshippers that the good gods are a bunch of frauds (ie., overpowered wizards) and spread atheist seeds of doubt to undermine the power of belief in the good gods. Good deities counter that with preaching of their godly might and hope for the people, while blasting the evil gods as bunch of petty devils/demons. Perhaps there are some devil lords and demon princes that were once gods but were successfully demoted.
Celebrim
Legend
Technically this is Materialism, and while it isn't obvious Aethism and Materialism are unrelated. You can be a non-materialist and an atheist, for example believing that gods don't exist but ghosts do, and you can believe in materialism and be a theist - for example believing that the real gods are essentially super powerful aliens whose magic is in fact advanced technology but that nonetheless these gods are worthy of worship and adoration.
One quibble about this of course is the question, well then, "What do you mean by gods?" The greeks for example believed in the reality of not just the Olympians, but the small gods of the wood, springs, and rivers. A nymph was just as much of a goddess and just as worthy of worship as Hera or Athena. Just powerful beings might be enough to say that they really are gods.
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Celebrim
Legend
Religious questions play a big role in my own campaign (not surprisingly, since I'm religious in real life). Atheism per se doesn't really exist in my homebrew, as there is manifest daily evidence for the existance of the gods. However, the fundamental questions related to atheism like uncertainty, rejection of the divine, the nature of the divine, and the proper relationship of man to the divine are huge parts of my campaign.
While everyone knows that the gods exist, lots of fundamental questions about them don't have definitive answers in the mortal sphere (and to some extent in the immortal sphere). For one thing, just what are the gods, and where do they come from? There are standard explanations, but not everyone accepts the standard story. The orthodox story is that the gods created man, but some believe that the relationship is the other way around.
There are even bigger debates about the proper relationship to the divine. Some suggest that well, they are just a higher order of nobility and essentially the relationship ought to be as you might have to your leige. Thus, a mortals authority could concievably overrule divine authority. Others argue that the station of the gods is so much higher than man that there is no comparison. Some on the other hand say that power ought to be no basis of judging authority, and therefore mortals and gods are in a philosophical sense equals and should treat each other as such. A few groups believe that the gods are basically tyrants and that mortals would be better off without them, and failing that, should at least try to have as little to do with them as possible.
There are also questions even in the orthodox community about whether some or even all gods retain their legitimate authority. After all, its accepted by even most of the orthodox community that the gods are also created beings. If the gods are in rebellion against their own rightful leige, whether this is another god or the unknown creator, then is it right for mortals to swear allegiance to a traitor. Some groups accept that basically all gods are worthy of worship (or at least useful to worship) while others pronounce various factions of the gods to be anathemas and unworthy of worship. Which prompts other groups to say, "Who are you to be passing judgment on the gods?" Some groups claim all the gods are anathemas.
The problem is complicated by the fact that the various gods for their own reasons promote each of these different views. If there is a trickster god out there going, "No we aren't real.", is he lying or telling the truth? If one god says, "Don't worship me; all relationships should be peer relationships made on the basis of mutual advantage." and another says, "I am your rightful king.", then you have to make a choice about what you are going to believe.
As a result of all of this, religious contriversy is no less of a problem and maybe even more of a problem in the fantasy world than it is in the real world. Simply knowing the existance of the gods for a fact doesn't in fact turn out to help answer the question, "Who am I and what is my place in the universe?", if only because there is more than one god out there and none that seem definitive.
Celebrim
Legend
As was implied by my previous post, monotheism is one of the common heresies on my homebrew. The orthodox view is that there are many gods and all (or at least all on one side of a philosophical divide) are worthy and deserving of worship from mortals. But some individuals or groups reject this, and claim that this god and this god alone is real (in the sense of preexisting mortals and not created by the collective belief of mortals) or that this god and this god alone is worthy of recieving worship by virtue of his unique merits. These groups are normally treated as being just wierd unless the nation doesn't have a tradition of religious freedom (most actually) and requires acts of peity directed toward a national pantheon. In which case, you can get in big trouble for saying that only your god is God.
Atheists do not believe that god or gods exist. A lot of them do not believe in the supernatural either.
All of this because they find the stories about gods or supernatural occurences lacking of credible facts.
I would say for most of them it boils down to evidence.
And this is really indepentent on how powerful a god is. After all, people believe in other gods beside jahwe or allah. Zeus is not all-powerful or all-knowing, for example.
Again, it boils down to evidence.
Nobody in the real world works believable supernatural miracles related to gods.
Clerics in a fantasy world do. And that would be the evidence in the fantasy world that they exist. The powers are proof that they do.
If somebody today in the real world could raise the dead, heal the sick and wounded, etc. through magic I am sure a lot of people would follow that person and the god(s) that person would claim is/are the source of that power. They would see it as evidence for the existence of that god.
So: I do not think that there are a lot of atheists running around in a typical D&D fantasy world.
Now, some people in that fantasy world may have chosen not to follow those gods (for their own reasons). But they would not deny "the fact" that the gods exist in that fantasy world.
And maybe in that fantasy world, they would be called "atheists". In the real world they would not be called that.
All of this because they find the stories about gods or supernatural occurences lacking of credible facts.
I would say for most of them it boils down to evidence.
And this is really indepentent on how powerful a god is. After all, people believe in other gods beside jahwe or allah. Zeus is not all-powerful or all-knowing, for example.
Again, it boils down to evidence.
Nobody in the real world works believable supernatural miracles related to gods.
Clerics in a fantasy world do. And that would be the evidence in the fantasy world that they exist. The powers are proof that they do.
If somebody today in the real world could raise the dead, heal the sick and wounded, etc. through magic I am sure a lot of people would follow that person and the god(s) that person would claim is/are the source of that power. They would see it as evidence for the existence of that god.
So: I do not think that there are a lot of atheists running around in a typical D&D fantasy world.
Now, some people in that fantasy world may have chosen not to follow those gods (for their own reasons). But they would not deny "the fact" that the gods exist in that fantasy world.
And maybe in that fantasy world, they would be called "atheists". In the real world they would not be called that.
For real-world humans, beliefs and evidence are not nearly as related as we'd like to think. People will believe, or refuse to believe, a lot of things despite what the evidence suggests.
No. The powers are proof that there is power available. Maybe that cleric is willfully or unconsciously using a form of magic that doesn't actually come from a deity.
