Dungeons & Dragons, 4th Edition: Remastered Director's Cut

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

You may think it's just being "cynical" to believe that repackaging material is nothing more than a money grab... I think it's more that some people are just cheap and have senses of entitlement that they shouldn't have.

You are cynical about my cynicism?

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

Let me offer you a different analogy.

4e's PH, DMG and MM are like big tubs of different legos.

I suspect that the Essentials line will add orange and black legos, as well as some that have simple moving parts so that you can build rotating devices like windmills. Also, maybe some curved ones, or something neat like the old moon surface lego terrain or whatever they called it.

But you know what? You can still build lots of things that are plenty cool with just the different sized bricks in white and red.

You're analogy is severely flawed, IMHO.

I'd say the PHB, DMG, and MM **together** are like a 1000-piece bin of legos. The new red box is like a 50-piece bin.

But take the core books individually--say you only have a PHB, or only have the DMG--they're like having just a square green base. Or just wheels that fit on pegs, but you don't have the pegs. Same thing with the new DM Kit or the "Heroes of the ..." books.

You have to have a minimum set of the pieces to start playing, and it will cost you more to get the equivalent of the 1000-piece bin than it used to if you start with the Essentials instead of the core books.

 

[Jack99]

As someone who owns the Blade Runner Five-Disc Ultimate Collector's Edition DVD briefcase that came out a couple Christmases ago (with fake origami unicorn and Matchbox-style spinner) and the original Director's Cut DVD, (my dad keeps the laserdisc) I know of what you speak.

And that's precisely the parallel I see between the core rulebooks and the Essentials line.

Yeah, that was totally not the vibe I got from your first post..

 

[Cor_Malek]

If you think Essentials are akin to a director's cut, then let me say two words.


Blade.

Runner.


Yeah baby, SWING!

Swing and miss? Or rather - cut artery (which is good) when one aimed for decapitation?

There were like six or seven versions of BR. And while yeah, it'd be great if Essentials would turn up to be the '92 version, or even better - the 2007 one... what if it's just the '86? Or, since it's "back to the original ideas", God Forbid - The Denver Dallas workprint? If it's truly the core with minor added material - maybe it's the Extended Domestic version?

Metaphors can be a bch


But I digress. I'd rather have WotC/Hasbro capitalize off repackaging than changing all drows, vampires and such to sparkle in light. Actually, I'd probably just add homebrew rule called "no fgy vampires" but the point stands.
Actually, no - it doesn't... I got what I wanted/needed. WotC can release a pink themed core book called Ponynomicron that adds power of love as rechargable daily, dealing 3d12 radiant damage - and I couldn't give a damn. If it actually comes out - I'll take a look at the shop and decide if it looks cool enough to invest in. If it's not - meh. If it is - yay!

edit: hehe, with minis!

 

[ExploderWizard]

ALSO, with the Director's Cut you can always go and download the new stuff for just $10.

Oh, what, you can't?

Funny, cause you can with DDI.

The DDI just makes it easier to integrate new stuff into the CB. It doesn't include everything that a book does.

You can prove me wrong by illustrating how one would find the basic familiar rules in the software.

I could pick up Arcane power and just look it up. I can find the particulars for all the different types of familiars in the CB but not the basic guidelines for them.

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

You used the word "need" quite a few times when talking about the options. I am not certain that I agree,

That's fair. I'm clearly speculating about what exactly is in the Essentials line since I haven't seen it yet.

in the same way that I don't "need" any of the 4E splat books (Arcane Power, Martial Power, etc). All that stuff is in the CB, and that is where I get that content from.

What do you **need** to play the game today? I say you need at least the PHB1 at the table. PHB1 has rules for how to play; rules for how to make characters; descriptions of races, classes, paragon paths, epic destinies, and their associated powers; descriptions of skills and feats; equipment and magic item rules and descriptions; full combat rules; and adventuring rules.

What is the Essentials equivalent of the PHB? It sure doesn't look like you get even most of that from any single Essentials product. And as soon as you need two or more Essentials products to equal the PHB you are paying more for less.

Thinking about the rules compendium, and the people who are asking for updated, errata-ed rules in print versus those claiming this to be a money grab.

I don't think the Rules Compendium is a money grab, but I do think that about the Essentials line as a whole.

It introduces the game to a wider audience (Red box will be in Toys R Us for the holiday season I bet),

The Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Starter Set was released in the fall of 2008 and contained "introductory version of the 4th Edition rules, dice, map tiles, and an adventure to get started playing right away!" with a $17 MSRP. This new red box is the same thing, only designed to exploit the power of nostalgia and the power of ooh-new-and-shiny instead of just the power of ooh-new-and-shiny.

Wizards of the Coast is a business, they need to have revenue. This is a win win in my opinion. and provides revenue for the company to produce further product.

A corporation doesn't have a right to revenue. They have to produce something of value to earn a customer's business. My argument is that they are offering less value in a new package with this Essentials line, using tricks mastered by the movie and music industries and so they don't deserve our money for it.

 

[the Jester]

You have to have a minimum set of the pieces to start playing, and it will cost you more to get the equivalent of the 1000-piece bin than it used to if you start with the Essentials instead of the core books.

If I'm not mistaken, the whole intent of the Essentials line is to make it cheap and easy to get into the game. You certainly won't need more to start playing; everything else is butter and designed to keep you playing.

You know, my old Red Box only covered up to 3rd level, but it was enough to start playing. From the sounds of things, the Essentials line will be sufficient to run an entire campaign. And if it's really cost that bugs you, just subscribe to DDI.

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

If I'm not mistaken, the whole intent of the Essentials line is to make it cheap and easy to get into the game. You certainly won't need more to start playing; everything else is butter and designed to keep you playing.

I'm saying you are mistaken and the whole intent of the Essentials line is actually to make players pay more than they would if they just went with the core books to start with.

I haven't come across anyone who thought the 4E PHB made the game too hard. And it's only $35. The 4E starter set box did exist--even if everyone here forgets it--and only cost $17 until WotC let it fall out of print in the ramp up to Essentials.

You know, my old Red Box only covered up to 3rd level, but it was enough to start playing. From the sounds of things, the Essentials line will be sufficient to run an entire campaign.

Using the Essentials line to run an entire campaign will be more expensive than using the core books.

Similar to a "director's cut" DVD or Bluray that adds seconds of edited footage, some side-boob, and a commentary track that provides minimal insight or entertainment, or a remastered album that provides a marginal sound improvement and a single new track that can be downloaded from iTunes for $.99 anyway, Essentials doesn't seem to offer sufficient value to be worth the increase in price.

And if it's really cost that bugs you, just subscribe to DDI.

That was my recommendation in the original post.

 

[Imaro]

If I'm not mistaken, the whole intent of the Essentials line is to make it cheap and easy to get into the game. You certainly won't need more to start playing; everything else is butter and designed to keep you playing.

You know, my old Red Box only covered up to 3rd level, but it was enough to start playing. From the sounds of things, the Essentials line will be sufficient to run an entire campaign. And if it's really cost that bugs you, just subscribe to DDI.

But it does cost more to play using "Essentials". For the equivalent of a PHB you need the Rules Compendium and a "Heroes of" book... Don't you?

 

[Festivus]

What do you **need** to play the game today? I say you need at least the PHB1 at the table. PHB1 has rules for how to play; rules for how to make characters; descriptions of races, classes, paragon paths, epic destinies, and their associated powers; descriptions of skills and feats; equipment and magic item rules and descriptions; full combat rules; and adventuring rules.

What is the Essentials equivalent of the PHB? It sure doesn't look like you get even most of that from any single Essentials product. And as soon as you need two or more Essentials products to equal the PHB you are paying more for less.

I honestly can't recall the last time I brought my PHB to a game table or had need to refer to anything within it. All I really **need** to play 4E is my character sheets, stat blocks for monsters, a set of dice, a story, some paper and some pencils. Beyond that it's all about what add ons I want for my game table. Thanks to DDI I really have everything I need on a few sheets of paper.

I suspect the essentials Red Box will give players a good introduction to the game, expand the audience and yes, bring in some collectors with the red box cover (I really think there is a marketing angle to that... Father and son walking through Toys R Us, Dad spots the old red box and says "Hey, I remember that game, I played it when I was your age..."

I just don't see it as a money grab is all, it's a good thing to bring more people into the hobby. The essentials products provides a easy to swallow price point to do so (initially anyhow... it will cost more in the long run but you and I are not the main target for this product).