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WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

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Azzy

Newtype
If my opinion carries less weight then it stands to reason my actions do as well. So I suppose I can just use the trope with impunity.
If that's your take away, then I have to wonder why you've even been engaging on this thread or even if you are engaging in an intellectually honest manner because you don't seem intent of looking at things from a different perspective or trying to understand how others feel. ¯\(ツ)
 

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MGibster

Legend
If that's your take away, then I have to wonder why you've even been engaging on this thread or even if you are engaging in an intellectually honest manner because you don't seem intent of looking at things from a different perspective or trying to understand how others feel. ¯\(ツ)

It was a flippant response to being told my opinion wasn't worth much. I actually do try to look at things from the perspective of others, but here's the thing, and this can be a bitter pill to swallow, understanding where someone else is coming from does not automatically lead to a consensus.
 



Libramarian

Adventurer
How real is that? Is he claiming bullying or anything?
They don't make any concrete claims like that.

It sounds like their coworkers didn't like their work, but instead of criticizing it openly they passive-aggressively ignored it, which led to anxiety and self doubt for this person.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
They don't make any concrete claims like that.

It sounds like their coworkers didn't like their work, but instead of criticizing it openly they passive-aggressively ignored it, which led to anxiety and self doubt for this person.
There was also an allegation of theft of work- as in, someone claiming as theirs the work he had done, without attribution.
 

Azzy

Newtype
It was a flippant response to being told my opinion wasn't worth much. I actually do try to look at things from the perspective of others, but here's the thing, and this can be a bitter pill to swallow, understanding where someone else is coming from does not automatically lead to a consensus.

I said that your opinion on a matter that affects minorities carries less weight than that of someone that is a part of that minority. It's because your opinions are not derived from a lived experience. I don't see how that is somehow a contentious idea. It's the same as someone who is not Italian and has no experience with Italian cusine from Italy having an opinion on what is "authenically" Italian carrying less weight on the subject than someone who is Italian, lives in Italy, and eat authentic Italian food every day of their life. Not all opinions are equal or come from an informed place. You, not being of a minority in question, have opinions that are inherently less informed than someone who is a minority of the type inquestion. Why is this so difficult to understand?
 


Sadras

Hero
Did you not say "Now find something real to be offended about".
Finally! Now you have quoted me correctly.

That is an offensive statement.
Not to me. That is the point!

That is you being reasonable. Would hate to read what you write if your being extreme.

I will tell you what is extreme to me: Burning buildings, removing books.
My 8 words, not so much.
 

Sadras

Hero
It may be unfair, but sometimes I really get the feeling that some of the posters here would have argued for minstrel shows and coon songs (sorry about the term, but it was a... thing) to not be stopped.

Now this was a smart insult as it doesn't trigger any violation of the rules. Because you didn't actual call any posters racists, you just "sometimes get the feeling" they are.

I'm really wondering if @Xenonnonex will deem your post reasonable or extreme.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
They don't make any concrete claims like that.

It sounds like their coworkers didn't like their work, but instead of criticizing it openly they passive-aggressively ignored it, which led to anxiety and self doubt for this person.

That's kinda in them.

Read a bit more from what they were writing.

Complained they weren't allowed to like people critical if WotC on Twitter.

Without being told that's just common sense. I wouldn't even use twitter unless the company expected it.

Also got paid 1/3rd. If you're a new hire wouldn't expect to get paid as much as someone with experience.

Fair point made on experience though. Some of them have been doing it for a while with 20+ years experience. Not sure what to do about that as the proof is in the pudding. That's a generational change no easy fix there.

Won't comment on other claims as I wasn't there.
 


Azzy

Newtype
Now this was a smart insult as it doesn't trigger any violation of the rules. Because you didn't actual call any posters racists, you just "sometimes get the feeling" they are.

I'm really wondering if @Xenonnonex will deem your post reasonable or extreme.
If you don't like the idea on one argument of ignoring what is considered racist and offensive to a particular minority and allowing it to be continued as being similar to the idea of arguing something else that is racist and offensive to another minority to be continued, maybe you should look at the argument in question.
 

pemerton

Legend
The D&D barbarian is largely modeled after Conan, but is not solely modeled after him.
The Barbaraian published in White Dwarf in the late 70s was expressly modelled on Conan.

I've never found the Dragon/UA, 3E or subsequent barbarians particularly Conan-esque.

To answer your OP question: I think Oriental Adventures is a dubious title, and the back cover blurb only worsens things. The content itself trades a bit on stereotypes but taken as a whole dose not seem outrageous. The allusion to suicide for losing Honour seems to be the most egregious aspect. The various warrior and magic-using classes seem well-suited for playing a game that emulates Kurosawa or Hong Kong c1990 tropes.

There are broader issues that might be raised about cultural appropriation. I think this is tricky territory for RPGs in general. And perhaps doubly so for Americans when so much RPG material is set in a non-American past.

As far as its presentation of how PCs and a gameworld might be build in an integrated fashion that will permit serious non-dungeon crawling play, I think it remains a high watermark for D&D books.
 

Sadras

Hero
If you don't like the idea on one argument of ignoring what is considered racist and offensive to a particular minority and allowing it to be continued as being similar to the idea of arguing something else that is racist and offensive to another minority to be continued, maybe you should look at the argument in question.

Do you even know my position or have you been ignoring what I have written throughout this thread?
 

pemerton

Legend
It may be unfair, but sometimes I really get the feeling that some of the posters here would have argued for minstrel shows and coon songs (sorry about the term, but it was a... thing) to not be stopped.
I have some sympathy for this. But I don't think this is a fair comparison to the original OA.

OA is not laden with Sax Rohmer-type tropes or themes. In that way it differs from (say) some CoC material I've seen.

The presentations of various sorts of warriors map onto idealisations found in (some) Japanese and Chinese popular cultural presentations of past/pseudo-historical periods in similar ways to knights, paladins and the like in other FRPGs. Likewise, though perhaps a bit more weakly in some cases (eg Sohei), for other classes.

Reading Sax Rohmer as a non-Asian person, and taking it seriously, will generate racial hatred. Reading OA as a non-Asian person with limited knowledge of Asian culture and history, and taking it seriously, will generate respect for and receptiveness to the culture, the history and the peoples. I think that's a fundamental difference.
 

Finally! Now you have quoted me correctly.
You wanted proof you made the same offensive statement? Congratulations!

Not to me. That is the point!
More reasonably word your disagreement. That is the point! Do not make an extremist statement from the off. It makes your position looks ludicrous.

I will tell you what is extreme to me: Burning buildings, removing books.
My 8 words, not so much.
Good. One of mine also -> telling people their thoughts are not real. That their opinions are not real.
 

Azzy

Newtype
Do you even know my position or have you been ignoring what I have written throughout this thread?
Was my comment that you previously quoted directed specifically at you when it wasn't in reply to a particular statement or person? Mo, it is the impression of several people and arguments made in this thread.
 

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