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WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

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What gives you the impression I'm against cultural consultants?
You do know OA had Japanese playtesters, not quite the same - and there were Asian persons involved in the 3.x book. But you know, these cultural consultants won't be full proof, how can they possibly be given everyone has a mic these days.

I'm saying I do not find the heftness in their justification for their offense and suggested they find something with heftness.

Okay.

If one does not find the necessary justification for other's offense then surely it would stand to reason that said other's offense would lose all sense of gravitas.

Same as above. But please note it would be said opinion on this matter with said justification. Should those justifications change then one's opinion could be re-evaluated.

Either that or your favourite Wizard of Oz character is the Strawman.
IMO it is the latter, but you can say my voice does not matter. ;)
"This not something real to be offended about". You said that. That is literal intolerance. You are denying them expression of thought. You are denying them expression of opinion. You are talking for them. Inserting your opinion as if it was objective. If you cannot work that out. There is no helping you. You want to continue to think like this. Fine. Good for you.
 

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Mercurius

Legend
"This not something real to be offended about". You said that. That is literal intolerance. You are denying them expression of thought. You are denying them expression of opinion. You are talking for them. Inserting your opinion as if it was objective. If you cannot work that out. There is no helping you. You want to continue to think like this. Fine. Good for you.
That's quite a leap, there. I'm not sure how Sadras is "denying" anyone their "expression of thought."
 

MGibster

Legend
"This not something real to be offended about". You said that. That is literal intolerance. You are denying them expression of thought. You are denying them expression of opinion. You are talking for them. Inserting your opinion as if it was objective. If you cannot work that out. There is no helping you. You want to continue to think like this. Fine. Good for you.
When did disagreement become tantamount to denial of expression of thought or opinion?
 


”Proper” research. What is that? Who defines power, that tends to be the hegemonic power, right? Which in this question, in this thread, seems to be the cultural insulatory propagators?
Well, let us start with this.

Zero research is not proper research.
Films and books with racist and stereotypical portrayals are not proper research.

Can we be in agreement with those two statements at least?

But as I said: In my opinion art - and RPG:s - must be free to express whatever. Forcing art to be an instrument for the power that happens to have hegemony - no matter how good a cause - is de facto censure and mind control.

Recognizing that cerain images sexualizes women, or stereotypes cultures in RPG:s, is all good and well. But the solution can never be to censure the artist.
The solution also cannot be to shield them from all criticism and make their work sacrosanct and unopposable.

So, we can't tell them to stop or say that their work is innaporpriate, and we can't ignore it and hope it goes away (it never does) what is left? I'm legitimately at a loss. I can't say "this is bad and you shouldn't do it" because I'm censuring artists and trying to mind control the population. But, I also can't just say "hey, leave it alone. People will figure out this is wrong all on their own without us saying anything." Because a few hundred years of global oppression tells us that, well, that apporach doesn't work.

So, what do we do? Let me ask the all of you who are so scared of censorship and the death of creative expression, what is our solution other than "allow the status quo to stand"?


As to the Euro-Alt-right: From skimming the links in this thread, I can’t understand anything else than that there is a massive ethno-cultural insular movement to protect specific Asian national-cultural heritages. And that is exactly what the alt-right movement is all about in Europe. And if you have read your European history from 1935-38, that aught to scare you. Not that Asian people want equality after centuries of oppression - that emancipatory movement is great and I support it whole-heartedly. But that people want to put up cultural borders and gatekeep cultural expressions, for me as an Europee just evokes kristallnacht and nazi bookburning. I can only hope that we can find better solutions to live in harmony. And roll lots of d20ies for common fun!
I think you skimmed too much, and you are again ascribing the wrong side to this.

Kristallnacht and book burning where about germany going around to secure "German Culture". Both of those by erasing and destroying other cultures.

This is a lot of people, mostly people of Far East Asian descent saying "hey, can you guys stop caricaturing our culture with these stereotypes and actually present what our real culture is?"

they aren't trying to erase other cultures and set up borders that prevent the exchange of ideas, they are going about asking that instead of us showing their culture like a performing chimp with an organ grinder, we show it properly.
 


I kind of want to say it's a leap, but I'm afraid you might interpret that as me denying your expression of thought or opinion.
Simple matter is. He could have said disagreement in those words. Instead of making the reactionary statement he did. One expresses disagreement. The other expresses denial of other opinions and expressions.
Disagree all you want.
 

MGibster

Legend
Simple matter is. He could have said disagreement in those words. Instead of making the reactionary statement he did. One expresses disagreement. The other expresses denial of other opinions and expressions.
Disagree all you want.
I do disagree. However, I wish to apologize for post #846. It was unnecessarily flippant, dismissive, and not conducive to creating an atmosphere where everyone can be comfortable voicing their opinion. You, me, and everyone else here has very strong opinions on this topic, and I should work to foster an environment where everyone is comfortable sharing their opinion. I apologize for being disrespectful and will do my best to be more mindful in the future.
 

I do disagree. However, I wish to apologize for post #846. It was unnecessarily flippant, dismissive, and not conducive to creating an atmosphere where everyone can be comfortable voicing their opinion. You, me, and everyone else here has very strong opinions on this topic, and I should work to foster an environment where everyone is comfortable sharing their opinion. I apologize for being disrespectful and will do my best to be more mindful in the future.
Thank you. This is an area that is sensitive to a lot of people. Should be treated with respect. Even if people do disagree.
The same I will strive to do.
 

PsyzhranV2

Adventurer

It's July 3th and I no longer work for Wizards of the Coast. I no longer work on D&D, the little that I did. This is going to be a long thread and my last for quite a while, so bear with me.

I took the job for two reasons. The first was for the dream. To escape poverty doing what I love, writing and making games. The second was to make D&D welcoming to the millions who are scorned by it.

A lot of people had hope for D&D that they carried with me. While some people were upset to see me work for a corporation that overshadows indie, others hoped that I would be able to make real change. I tried. I failed. And I lost a lot.

Liking a tweet or post, RTing, or even following people who speak ill of WotC can lose you your job in an instant. That's why you never see it happen. @Zbeg is 100% correct. It's a silencing tool. I can say more now.

Kindness doesn't replace respect. Working within your comfort zone doesnt support change. Most people in that group were not ready for me to be there, a nonbinary Black person who would actually critique their problems. Idk what they expected.

I worked hard for a very long time. I got a lot of smiles and vocal support, but it was followed by inaction and being ignored. My coworkers were frustrated for me, and still are now. I confided in them often, cried on shoulders on a few occasions.

I realized at one point that leadership had given me 2 assignments over about 5 months. It was mostly me asking project leads for work, searching out opportunities. Leadership didnt really care about me or my growth. I had to.

I firmly believe that I was a diversity hire. There was no expectation for me to do much of anything. I probably disrupted them by being vocal and following up. It didnt matter if I was supported by seniors and positive.

I think genuine people proposed me as an option and it was accepted because it would look like a radical positive change. It would help quiet vocal outrage. And because I had to stay silent, it was a safe bet.

I started to lose all of my confidence. I started to lose trust in myself. After finding out that I wasnt getting an extension or FTE, I resolved to just finish things out and take care of myself. To stop fighting and to just survive, quietly. But it just kept getting worse.

They would talk about how they're going to start working on treating staff better, retaining contractors, actually answering questions. How much they were invested in diversity and change even though they hired two cis white dudes into two big leadership positions during this. One of whom claimed that he doesnt know what he's doing. No shit. I never want to hear "maybe they just hire the best person for the job" again.

I found out that some of my work was stolen, which destroyed me. It lined up with a project they were going to do and I had sent it in to someone in leadership months ago. The project was announced and this person who contributed "forgot" that we had a meeting where I gave them my ideas, and then a follow up document the day after. I knew nothing was going to be done about it. Someone else told me that the person said sorry that they forgot. That's it.

I was really losing my ability to do much of anything. I have depression and anxiety and ADHD, all of which I manage pretty well. But those parts of me were under the pressure of being ignored, disrespected, "forgotten", and not being able to say a word to the world.

Then, as social unrest continued global due to BLM, the D&D team comes out with their statement. It was like a slap in the face. How much they care about people of color, how much changing things (that I and others had been pushing for months, if not longer) was just going to happen now. It took weeks of protesting across the globe to get D&D to do what people they hired have been already telling them to fix. You cannot, CANNOT say Black lives matter when you cannot respect the Black people who you exploit at 1/3rd your pay, for progressive ideas you pick apart until it's comfortable, for your millions of profit year over year. People of color can make art and freelance, but are never hired. D&D takes what they want from marginalized people, give them scraps, and claim progress.

I spent my time in that building worrying about how much people hated me for working there. I spent a lot of time thinking about how much it hurt to work there. I had and still have supporters, and many. Thanks to you all for being my voice and speaking out when I could not. But I felt so isolated and alone. If not for some coworkers who checked in on me, who were going through the same things? I would've quit. Every angry statement about D&D felt personal because I couldn't fix it. Because I failed, whether it was my fault or not. I felt like I was being trashed by everyone because I could not disconnect what I set as a personal responsibility from the state of the game. That part IS my fault.

But I wound up as I am now because of all of this and much, much more. I am depressed. I am unable to write. I constantly question if anything I create is worth anything. I feel like I let everyone down, and no matter how much people tell me I didnt, that doesnt change. I feel guilty for not being what y'all needed me to be, what I wanted to be, and betrayed for how I was treated at that company. It's an exceptionally kind place on the D&D team. People are very nice to each other in a very genuine way that I truly enjoyed. However, that doesnt replace respect. That doesnt delete how I was treated. It doesnt change the fact that I honestly never want to play a trpg again and am definitely not working in that field anymore.

I know that I'm probably losing a ton of opportunities writing elsewhere because of what I've said here, as well as what I've sent in internally. It may mean that I will return to poverty, which makes me feel like a failure to my race, my family, and my partner who I want to provide the world. But under all these things, I have my integrity. I worked my ass off. I did my best for as long as I could. And I didnt let them treat me like that without telling the world what needs to be said.

Trust actions, not words. Not "look at how much we freelance so and so", because freelancing is exploitation of diversity with no support for the freelancer. Not "here we finally did what we KNOW we should've done a long time ago", because they only care about how optics turn to dollars. EVERYTHING involving D&D will continue to farm marginalized people for the looks and never put them in leadership. They wont be put on staff. They will be held at arms length. I hope they prove me wrong.

A lot of BIPOC and other marginalized people are trying to make their way by using D&D. Dont shame them for that. Think about how much, and when you wield your anger, that it is done righteously.

That said, I dont recommend to anyone, working for the D&D department of Wizards of the Coast.

Godammit. Damn it all to hell.

Empty words from Crawford, empty words from Perkins, utter silence from Stewart. Vanity and falsehood, all of it.

Burn it all down. Play another game.
 

Sadras

Hero
"This not something real to be offended about". You said that. That is literal intolerance. You are denying them expression of thought. You are denying them expression of opinion. You are talking for them. Inserting your opinion as if it was objective. If you cannot work that out. There is no helping you. You want to continue to think like this. Fine. Good for you.
They expressed their thoughts.
They expressed their opinions.
I thought the justifications of their opinions expressed were weak which made their entire reason for their offense weak.
I'm not going to do their work for them or share/support their outrage for an offense I find unjustified. So yes, I don't see their offense on OA as a real issue.

I'm not inserting but posting my opinion on the matter in this thread. Your position is that my opinion needs to accept their opinion as some sort of truth on the matter. I don't. I think they need to work on their justifications for their offense as do you on your understanding of my post.

Fine. Good for me.
 

They expressed their thoughts.
They expressed their opinions.
I thought the justifications of their opinions expressed were weak which made their entire reason for their offense weak.
I'm not going to do their work for them or share/support their outrage for an offense I find unjustified. So yes, I don't see their offense on OA as a real issue.

I'm not inserting but posting my opinion on the matter in this thread. Your position is that my opinion needs to accept their opinion as some sort of truth on the matter. I don't. I think they need to work on their justifications for their offense as do you on your understanding of my post.

Fine. Good for me.
Express your disagreement more reasonably.
Do not dare say "this is not something real to be offended about"
Not now. Not ever. Do not.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Collectives are abstractions. Individuals are real. There is too much crypto-nihilism disguising itself as "historical justice" these days. The past is not something bad that happened to us because we would not exist without it. If we would be better off not existing our lives are definitionally worthless . And if our lives are worthless they cannot matter . So in any philosophy based on the universal value of human life the concept of deriving justice directly from historical wrongs must be false .

Inequality arises alongside the necessity of existence and it should be fixed but it cannot be fixed with a philosophy that is fundamentally self-contradictory.

Anyway to get back to the main topic they should just slap a disclaimer on there and forget about it for now. A handful of people taking offence is not enough. I am not a big fan of the argument that they must be heeded because they are a "minority under threat" because that sounds an awful lot like "Oriental Adventures would be less racist if there were no Asians in the United States". And frankly any argument which could be logically drawn out that way must be fatally flawed in some way because diversity is supposed to be good. I believe it is good. One of the mottos of my country right now is literally "Diversity is our strength," and I am all for it.
This is why Socrates liked to scream at sophists.
 

Sadras

Hero
Express your disagreement more reasonably. Do not dare say "this is not something real to be offended about" Not now. Not ever. Do not.
Firstly, it's not correct to use quotes if you are going paraphrase.
Secondly, this is me being reasonable when someone is "offended" in that way about a fantasy book and calling for its removal considering our reality right now.
Thirdly, you do you.
 

Firstly, it's not correct to use quotes if you are going paraphrase.
Secondly, this is me being reasonable when someone is "offended" in that way about a fantasy book and calling for its removal considering our reality right now.
Thirdly, you do you.
Did you not say "Now find something real to be offended about". Your quote. Post #504. That is an offensive statement. That is you being reasonable. Would hate to read what you write if your being extreme.
Yeah. Continue to voice opinions like that. And statements like that. Good luck.
 

Azzy

Newtype
Yes. I always read articles when asked. They showed how someone might go about mapping fiction onto reality. Which was fine. But they failed to explain how mapping fiction onto reality is a logical thing to do. Likewise, they fails to explain how integrating one's identity with that of a group is a sound premise.
I think in your attemp to sound logical, you come across more mechanical and incoherent. The articles in question describe how the trope is a bad charicature and how it has been used to justify virulently racist and imperialistic behavior, and continues to be used to create a false narrative.
 

Azzy

Newtype
As I’ve written before, I’m all for disclaimers etc.

But when people actually argue for cultural isolation and segregation, with cultural consultant ”diplomats” being the judges of what cultural material - and in what form - are allowed to cross cultural borders, that makes me really scared.
Rather than what's allowed to be shared, it's more about how it's being shared. There was a link to a nice article on a previous page that discusses the topic (sorry, I'm too lazy to find it for you).
 

Azzy

Newtype
Old trek makes you think, new trek tells you what to think.
Um, no. ST is still doing what it's been doing. That it rubs you the wrong way now isn't its fault or some different presentation.

I just wish Gabriel Bell would show up soon.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Um, no. ST is still doing what it's been doing. That it rubs you the wrong way now isn't its fault or some different presentation.

I just wish Gabriel Bell would show up soon.
Really liked DS9, STD was ok, liked Picard.

It's not as good as old trek IMHO due to the writing. Couldn't get into Discovery/Enterprise.

I'm not a Trekkie as such more casual. I can't argue trek canon for example.
 

Libramarian

Adventurer

It's July 3th and I no longer work for Wizards of the Coast. I no longer work on D&D, the little that I did. This is going to be a long thread and my last for quite a while, so bear with me.

I took the job for two reasons. The first was for the dream. To escape poverty doing what I love, writing and making games. The second was to make D&D welcoming to the millions who are scorned by it.

A lot of people had hope for D&D that they carried with me. While some people were upset to see me work for a corporation that overshadows indie, others hoped that I would be able to make real change. I tried. I failed. And I lost a lot.

Liking a tweet or post, RTing, or even following people who speak ill of WotC can lose you your job in an instant. That's why you never see it happen. @Zbeg is 100% correct. It's a silencing tool. I can say more now.

Kindness doesn't replace respect. Working within your comfort zone doesnt support change. Most people in that group were not ready for me to be there, a nonbinary Black person who would actually critique their problems. Idk what they expected.

I worked hard for a very long time. I got a lot of smiles and vocal support, but it was followed by inaction and being ignored. My coworkers were frustrated for me, and still are now. I confided in them often, cried on shoulders on a few occasions.

I realized at one point that leadership had given me 2 assignments over about 5 months. It was mostly me asking project leads for work, searching out opportunities. Leadership didnt really care about me or my growth. I had to.

I firmly believe that I was a diversity hire. There was no expectation for me to do much of anything. I probably disrupted them by being vocal and following up. It didnt matter if I was supported by seniors and positive.

I think genuine people proposed me as an option and it was accepted because it would look like a radical positive change. It would help quiet vocal outrage. And because I had to stay silent, it was a safe bet.

I started to lose all of my confidence. I started to lose trust in myself. After finding out that I wasnt getting an extension or FTE, I resolved to just finish things out and take care of myself. To stop fighting and to just survive, quietly. But it just kept getting worse.

They would talk about how they're going to start working on treating staff better, retaining contractors, actually answering questions. How much they were invested in diversity and change even though they hired two cis white dudes into two big leadership positions during this. One of whom claimed that he doesnt know what he's doing. No shit. I never want to hear "maybe they just hire the best person for the job" again.

I found out that some of my work was stolen, which destroyed me. It lined up with a project they were going to do and I had sent it in to someone in leadership months ago. The project was announced and this person who contributed "forgot" that we had a meeting where I gave them my ideas, and then a follow up document the day after. I knew nothing was going to be done about it. Someone else told me that the person said sorry that they forgot. That's it.

I was really losing my ability to do much of anything. I have depression and anxiety and ADHD, all of which I manage pretty well. But those parts of me were under the pressure of being ignored, disrespected, "forgotten", and not being able to say a word to the world.

Then, as social unrest continued global due to BLM, the D&D team comes out with their statement. It was like a slap in the face. How much they care about people of color, how much changing things (that I and others had been pushing for months, if not longer) was just going to happen now. It took weeks of protesting across the globe to get D&D to do what people they hired have been already telling them to fix. You cannot, CANNOT say Black lives matter when you cannot respect the Black people who you exploit at 1/3rd your pay, for progressive ideas you pick apart until it's comfortable, for your millions of profit year over year. People of color can make art and freelance, but are never hired. D&D takes what they want from marginalized people, give them scraps, and claim progress.

I spent my time in that building worrying about how much people hated me for working there. I spent a lot of time thinking about how much it hurt to work there. I had and still have supporters, and many. Thanks to you all for being my voice and speaking out when I could not. But I felt so isolated and alone. If not for some coworkers who checked in on me, who were going through the same things? I would've quit. Every angry statement about D&D felt personal because I couldn't fix it. Because I failed, whether it was my fault or not. I felt like I was being trashed by everyone because I could not disconnect what I set as a personal responsibility from the state of the game. That part IS my fault.

But I wound up as I am now because of all of this and much, much more. I am depressed. I am unable to write. I constantly question if anything I create is worth anything. I feel like I let everyone down, and no matter how much people tell me I didnt, that doesnt change. I feel guilty for not being what y'all needed me to be, what I wanted to be, and betrayed for how I was treated at that company. It's an exceptionally kind place on the D&D team. People are very nice to each other in a very genuine way that I truly enjoyed. However, that doesnt replace respect. That doesnt delete how I was treated. It doesnt change the fact that I honestly never want to play a trpg again and am definitely not working in that field anymore.

I know that I'm probably losing a ton of opportunities writing elsewhere because of what I've said here, as well as what I've sent in internally. It may mean that I will return to poverty, which makes me feel like a failure to my race, my family, and my partner who I want to provide the world. But under all these things, I have my integrity. I worked my ass off. I did my best for as long as I could. And I didnt let them treat me like that without telling the world what needs to be said.

Trust actions, not words. Not "look at how much we freelance so and so", because freelancing is exploitation of diversity with no support for the freelancer. Not "here we finally did what we KNOW we should've done a long time ago", because they only care about how optics turn to dollars. EVERYTHING involving D&D will continue to farm marginalized people for the looks and never put them in leadership. They wont be put on staff. They will be held at arms length. I hope they prove me wrong.

A lot of BIPOC and other marginalized people are trying to make their way by using D&D. Dont shame them for that. Think about how much, and when you wield your anger, that it is done righteously.

That said, I dont recommend to anyone, working for the D&D department of Wizards of the Coast.

Godammit. Damn it all to hell.

Empty words from Crawford, empty words from Perkins, utter silence from Stewart. Vanity and falsehood, all of it.

Burn it all down. Play another game.
That's sad. It must be awful to feel like a diversity hire. Talk about impostor syndrome.
 

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