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WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

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Azzy

Newtype
I have some sympathy for this. But I don't think this is a fair comparison to the original OA.

OA is not laden with Sax Rohmer-type tropes or themes. In that way it differs from (say) some CoC material I've seen.

The presentations of various sorts of warriors map onto idealisations found in (some) Japanese and Chinese popular cultural presentations of past/pseudo-historical periods in similar ways to knights, paladins and the like in other FRPGs. Likewise, though perhaps a bit more weakly in some cases (eg Sohei), for other classes.

Reading Sax Rohmer as a non-Asian person, and taking it seriously, will generate racial hatred. Reading OA as a non-Asian person with limited knowledge of Asian culture and history, and taking it seriously, will generate respect for and receptiveness to the culture, the history and the peoples. I think that's a fundamental difference.
In your opinion. In contrast, some Asian Americans have a much different take away of the book. Perhaps we should listen to them.
 

Sadras

Hero
You wanted proof you made the same offensive statement? Congratulations!
Fixed it. And no, I let you quote it wrong once, twice - but on the third time I figured I best point out that you're using quotation marks incorrectly.

More reasonably word your disagreement. That is the point! Do not make an extremist statement from the off. It makes your position looks ludicrous.
Again, we will have to agree to disagree that what I said was an extremist statement. We are all prone to different sensitivities.


Good. One of mine also -> telling people their thoughts are not real. That their opinions are not real.

So much Cathy Newman in this answer. Their thoughts are real. Their opinions are real.
I said "Find something real to be offended about"

So let us break down the sentence.
Find something that actually matters OR of real value OR that truly causes offense to be offended about."

That does not mean their thoughts were not real. They had them. Those thoughts existed.
This does not mean their opinions were not real. They had them. Those opinion existed.
Were they very good. Nope, not to me they weren't.

Read this. Understand this you must.
 

pemerton

Legend
In your opinion. In contrast, some Asian Americans have a much different take away of the book. Perhaps we should listen to them.
Sure. I'm happy to listen. I listen to many things.

I listen to Black people too when they talk about minstrel shows and the like. I think your comparison of OA to minstrel shows is inapt. OA is not a work of racial hatred. Have you read it?
 

Sadras

Hero
In your opinion. In contrast, some Asian Americans have a much different take away of the book. Perhaps we should listen to them.

And in contrast to them, there are Asian Americans in this very thread that share a very different opinion.

@pemerton, just a head's up, their series of videos are apparently 26 hours long - they are certainly long-winded in their approach.
 

I think in your attemp to sound logical, you come across more mechanical and incoherent. The articles in question describe how the trope is a bad charicature and how it has been used to justify virulently racist and imperialistic behavior, and continues to be used to create a false narrative.

But your articles don't justify racism or imperialistic behavior (though I only have a vague idea vague idea what you mean by the latter).

I remember reading a book from my university library arguing that the Greeks originated in England. The author wrote 360 pages to justify his claim, yet failed miserably. To my estimation, anyone trying to justify racism using bad charicatures, as you call them, is riding the same ship.
 


Fixed it. And no, I let you quote it wrong once, twice - but on the third time I figured I best point out that you're using quotation marks incorrectly.


Again, we will have to agree to disagree that what I said was an extremist statement. We are all prone to different sensitivities.




So much Cathy Newman in this answer. Their thoughts are real. Their opinions are real.
I said "Find something real to be offended about"

So let us break down the sentence.
Find something that actually matters OR of real value OR that truly causes offense to be offended about."

That does not mean their thoughts were not real. They had them. Those thoughts existed.
This does not mean their opinions were not real. They had them. Those opinion existed.
Were they very good. Nope, not to me they weren't.

Read this. Understand this you must.
Not fixed at all. It is an offensive statement. Your trying to explain it. Does make it any better. In fact your reasoning makes the hole deeper. And unhinged from reality.
It literally matters to that group. And is of real value to that group. Your continued excuses to justify the offensive statement do not work.
Again. This is a sensitive topic. For many. And in the world. Treat it with respect.
If you cannot understand any of that. It is impossible to help you.
 

Azzy

Newtype
Sure. I'm happy to listen. I listen to many things.

I listen to Black people too when they talk about minstrel shows and the like. I think your comparison of OA to minstrel shows is inapt. OA is not a work of racial hatred. Have you read it?

Yes, I have read it. I own it, and have used it in the past. And I agree that the book was not a a work of racial hatred or intended to cause offence. However, it apparenty does cause offence, it perpetuates some racist stereotypes (as the minstrels shows did), gives entirely incorrect perceptions of Asians and Asian cultures, and such. Just because a work isn't intended to be racist doen't mean that it isn't. In a culture that suffers from systemic racism, such as the US, racism isnt always as oblique as neo-nazis and kkk. More often is appears in subconcios biases that have been ingrained by stereotypes, systems that benefit some parties at the expense of others, and so on (there are articles on the subject that can explain systemic racism far better than I can, and I'll defer to those). That said, not acting or suggest tnot to act in some way to acknowledge the ills of OA is the same as allowing its racist material to perpetuate.
 

Azzy

Newtype
And in contrast to them, there are Asian Americans in this very thread that share a very different opinion.

This isn't a mathematical equation—they don't cancel each other out. Offense is still happening. It's not up to us to say that just because these people over here aren't offended that we shouldn't stop offending those people over there. That's not how this works.
 


Azzy

Newtype
But your articles don't justify racism or imperialistic behavior (though I only have a vague idea vague idea what you mean by the latter).

I remember reading a book from my university library arguing that the Greeks originated in England. The author wrote 360 pages to justify his claim, yet failed miserably. To my estimation, anyone trying to justify racism using bad charicatures, as you call them, is riding the same ship.

o_O

The articles are supposed to justify racism or imperialistic behavior. They describe how that such charactures and woeful reductions have been used to justify such behavor. That's the legacy of these tropes that they can't be disentagled from. If you don't know what I mean about imperialistic behavior, read this, this, and this. Even now white nationalists and white supremacists contine to use these old stereotypes, tropes, and psuedo-science to justify their worldviews.
 




o_O

The articles are supposed to justify racism or imperialistic behavior. They describe how that such charactures and woeful reductions have been used to justify such behavor. That's the legacy of these tropes that they can't be disentagled from. If you don't know what I mean about imperialistic behavior, read this, this, and this. Even now white nationalists and white supremacists contine to use these old stereotypes, tropes, and psuedo-science to justify their worldviews.

But those old stereotypes, tropes, and psuedo-science do not justify anything true about the world.
 

Because not all people think alike.
Asians are told to bear it. Not rock the boat. That is shite.

I'm not telling anyone to bear anything. Not all people think alike is not terribly illuminating. Perhaps each groups has specific hypotheses and propositions that justify offended or not. It is useful to compare those hypotheses and propositions to determine which (if any) are grounded in fact.
 

Actually, I don't think that's the better question at all. And, really, that's up to the Asan American community to discuss and decide for themselves.

Is there an Asian American community? Are they a single body? Can they discuss propositions and make decisions as a single cohesive unit? Personally, I'm not convinced of that.
 

Sadras

Hero
I'm not telling anyone to bear anything.

No the respectful @Xenonnonex implied that the reason those Asians who did not offer the same view as the offended Asians was because they were told to bear it and not rock the boat, thus their opinions were not of outrage.

This informs us that @Xenonnonex believes:
1. All Asian Americans should, if not have, the same opinion.
2. Differing opinions from Asians Americans are due to them being told to bear it and not rock the boat. They felt the need to conform.
3. All Asian Americans have the same experiences.

EDIT: And then you get the complaint that Gygax and co did a pastiche of all asian cultures to produce OA meanwhile you have a poster painting all AA with one really broad brush.
 

I'm not telling anyone to bear anything. Not all people think alike is not terribly illuminating. Perhaps each groups has specific hypotheses and propositions that justify offended or not. It is useful to compare those hypotheses and propositions to determine which (if any) are grounded in fact.
No. That is how they are raised. As immigrants. I have witnessed this. Some friends have told me this. Anecdotal. But it seems to be cultural. Ingrained. Not to make waves.
 

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