WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

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Coroc

Hero
At the risk of sounding like I'm making excuses, I'd just like to say: my Italian-inspired halfling culture did have Mafia-inspired criminal organizations, but not every halfling was a member of those organizations - in the same way that not every orc is a Chaotic Evil raider.

My brother in law is Italian, I got some roots in italy and I love Italian culture, I even would want to live there if it were possible for me.

And I love the idea of Halfling mafia. This is like Boromar clan in Eberrons Sharn. Or lets go Dragonlance: a Kender mafia, of course they only borrow things but on an organized level :p

Maybe this even works on Athas? Something like halflings who moved fro mtheir forests into a Citystate? Could this work out?
 

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MGibster

Legend
The real problem with Oriental Adventures is the vaguely segregationist attitude that underlies the whole thing. There's no reason why it shoukd be necessary to invent fantasy asia just because you want to add martial arts, ninjas, and katanas to your setting and there's certainly no reason why they all need to be packaged together and come from the same place in-world. That's just lazy unimaginative world building.

I have heard people make valid complaints about the lack of representation in artwork and wish for more settings that aren't so Eurocentric. Until now, I haven't heard anyone argue that we shouldn't create settings inspired by Asia, though there's certainly room for debate over how such projects are implemented as evidence by this thread. But we can't complain about a lack of diversity or a lack of Eurocentric settings and then turn around and complain when someone creates a setting that isn't faux Europe.

And besides, can you imagine the howls of outrage if we took Kung-fu, katanas, and ninjas and attributed them to a European style culture?
 

Coroc

Hero
Meh, Halfings run the biggest crime syndicate in Eberron, I thought that was awesome. They aren't eating cannoli and wearing matching track suit sets of course, but they are somewhat plump and are nice to old ladies. Where's that leave us? I have no idea.

But that is awesome? No?
 

I thik this, too. Yet there are Italians that are pissed and tired to be equated to pizza spaghetti and mafia.

My experience growing up is this is an extremely small group of people who complain about mafia media. Most got a kick out of it. I made my own grandfather a hit man in my mafia RPG, and he loved it.
 

Sadras

Legend
I’m not really big into catering to “whataboutism” arguments.

The point stands and cannot be ignored or deflected with the catchy terms which you like to use like whataboutism or slippery slope.
This IS the history of D&D, pastiche stereotypical settings inspired by RL history and cultures is the game. To become offended by parts of it is weak sauce. That will be my catch phrase.
 
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Danzauker

Adventurer
Not in great depth, but yes. I was not terribly impressed with it, and it has mostly faded into obscurity with the onset of more interesting settings in D&D.

Not true. In italy, at least, where BECMI was the first translated and successful, rule set (but from what I remember it's not the only country where the breakthtough of D&D passed through BECMI), it's still regarded by a very large number of player as "the" setting.

So you start from a false assumption.

EDIT because i forgot: and even if it " faded into obscurity with the onset of more interesting settings" (which is your opinion anyway), what does it matter? If it were the most famous and prominent setting then would it be exempted from screening? Ravenloft is one of the most famous settings, yet, curse of Strahd will have changes regarding Vistani/Gipsy depictions...

But is the story about the settings good in OA? And there are a number of East Asian voices from those living in Euro-America who are telling you that it's not a good story because they find that it propagates harmful stereotypes about East Asian cultures and its peoples.

But where are those "harmful stereotypes"? From what i've read so far the problems seem to be:

1) the title. OK. I don't find it an issue, but nevermind.
2) cherry picking of folklore from different cultures to create a setting. Little historical faithfulness. Is it really an issue? That's the origin of most fantasy worlds in games and literature.
3) reference to Comeliness and other D&D mechanics of old not specific to OA. These are to be discussed elsewhere.

Where are the offensive and harmful parts? Can anyone provide a snippet to a part where, don't know, Japanese are depicted with thick glasses or speaking funny?

Earlier @Umbran pointed out that there is not a proper symmetry in the power balance between the various actors in this exchange, between East Asian cultures depicting the Euro-America and Euro-America depicted East Asia, as well as noting complexities such as people of East Asian descent living in predominately white Euro-American cultures. In another thread, @Campbell also talked about the difference between "punching up" and "punching down" when it comes to how things are framed, which is also important to keep in mind.

Western Europe is actually fairly small when compared to East Asia. And Western Europe also had some fairly large cultural unifiers, namely the Roman Catholic Church, while also the Frankish Empire of Charlemagne & Co. kinda had a large cultural impact on how nations like France, the Holy Roman Empire, Italy, Belelux, Bohemia, and Hungary would develop due to their monarchical connections. Part of why the reason why we can often talk about Medieval Europe with some broad strokes is because of how pervasive the Roman Catholic Church was as an institution throughout Western Europe in the Middle Ages. So even when people spoke different languages and had different cultures, a lot of communication was done via Ecclesiastical Latin.

Do you happen to be American? Frankly, what you're saying about Europe is as generic and inaccurate as what I could say about Asia. Do you really think all of Europe is so similar? Do you know that we have multiple langiage, we frewuently warred on each other and we eat different things? Hehk, even now we have countries that drive on opposite sides of the street and use different metrical systems!

I do sometimes roll my eyes about how Judeo-Christianity is depicted in Japanese media, but I also do the same with a Western media that has essentially become religiously illiterate. But I don't really have a voice in how Japan depicts Euro-America. I do have a voice in how Euro-America depicts Japan or Euro-America depicts Euro-America. So we are seeing a number of people of East Asian descent living in Euro-America who are giving rise to their own voices about how their fellow Euro-Americans are depicting them in a fantasy elf game.

If you are American, following your reasoning, I should ask you to speak in my behalf and put me in your mish mash Euro-American fantasy category, don't you think?
 
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Sadras

Legend
Not true. In italy, at least, where BECMI was the first translated and successful, rule set (but from what I remember it's not the only country where the breakthtough of D&D passed through BECMI), it's still regarded by a very large number of player as "the" setting.

So you start from a false assumption.

I can concur - the Italian Mystaran fanbase is inspiring. Along with a few others around the globe they have put together the lovingly-crafted Threhold magazine which is still going strong.
 
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Aldarc

Legend
The point stands and cannot be ignored or deflected with a fancy terms that you like to use like whataboutism or slippery slope.
This IS the history of D&D, pastiche stereotypical settings inspired by RL history and cultures is the game. To become offended by it is weak sauce. That will be my catch phrase.
I’m not sure you want from me. I’m not sure how I am deflecting the point much less how it stands on an argument that amounts to more than “it is what it is.” In a post where I briefly address and express my thoughts about pastiche European settings like Mystara and Theah you accuse me of ignoring them and that being offended by how real cultures are imagined in game setting is “weak sauce.” Now you are saying that this “IS the history of D&D”? Well so what? What would you like to argue Sadras - what are you arguing? - because I’m too impatient to play guessing games.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
See, your remark borsers the offensive.

IIRC the last figures I read, have Italians on average thinner than Americans.

And I hate old ladies.
Not sure if serious.jpg
 

FireLance

Legend
My brother in law is Italian, I got some roots in italy and I love Italian culture, I even would want to live there if it were possible for me.

And I love the idea of Halfling mafia. This is like Boromar clan in Eberrons Sharn. Or lets go Dragonlance: a Kender mafia, of course they only borrow things but on an organized level :p

Maybe this even works on Athas? Something like halflings who moved fro mtheir forests into a Citystate? Could this work out?
I really don't think Italian-inspired cannibal halflings are a good idea. Gives Grandma's meatballs and spaghetti a whole new meaning. :sick:
 

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