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WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

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I'm not denying that people classified into the group "Asian Americans" (which I believe to be a dubious step) were marginalized and stereotyped. I'm argue that all basis for those marginalization and stereotypes is rooted in misconceptions that must be differentiated from fact.
Why have community groups. Why have community organizations. If the community for it does not exist.

Racism is often irrational. And not rooted in anything. Simply happens because the racist is a little shite. No excuse in that.
 

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Azzy

Newtype
I'm not denying that people classified into the group "Asian Americans" (which I believe to be a dubious step) were marginalized and stereotyped. I'm argue that all basis for those marginalization and stereotypes is rooted in misconceptions that must be differentiated from fact.
That's a moving goalpost given that you were just saying that you had doubts about there being an Asian-American community. Honestly, at this point, it just sounds like you're sealioning.
 

Why have community groups. Why have community organizations. If the community for it does not exist.

Racism is often irrational. And not rooted in anything. Simply happens because the racist is a little shite. No excuse in that.
I don't know why people have community groups. I don't know why people are flat Eathers or moonlanding deniers. For community groups, I might hypothesize that they serve a purpose of combating loneliness, isolation, and meaninglessness for those individuals. I have worthy justification for those propositions, however.

I'm not excuse racism because it's irrational. Irrationality is never excusable and should instead be rectified.
 

That's a moving goalpost given that you were just saying that you had doubts about there being an Asian-American community. Honestly, at this point, it just sounds like you're sealioning.
The goalpost is not moving. Individuals can be placed into perceived, but imaginary groups and discriminated against as such. However, that discrimination does not justify the existence of such groups.
 


I don't know why people have community groups. I don't know why people are flat Eathers or moonlanding deniers. For community groups, I might hypothesize that they serve a purpose of combating loneliness, isolation, and meaninglessness for those individuals. I have worthy justification for those propositions, however.

I'm not excuse racism because it's irrational. Irrationality is never excusable and should instead be rectified.
They exist for their communities. For those communities.
Remember. Asian American is incredibly diverse.
Your irrelevant comments about flatearthers and moonlanding deniers I will ignore.
 

That's a lot of words for saying nothing of actual substance.
That's because I'm not presenting substance. I'm asking substance to be presented. I'm auguring that racism is poor reasoning that must be corrected.

Many (which I perceive you to be among, but I may be wrong) are arguing for the removal as a track to reduce racism. I don't see how removing art reduces racism without correcting poor reasoning in the first place, but if that poor reasoning was corrected, there would be no reason to remove said art.
 

That's because I'm not presenting substance. I'm asking substance to be presented. I'm auguring that racism is poor reasoning that must be corrected.

Many (which I perceive you to be among, but I may be wrong) are arguing for the removal as a track to reduce racism. I don't see how removing art reduces racism without correcting poor reasoning in the first place, but if that poor reasoning was corrected, there would be no reason to remove said art.
To combat racism. Requires education. Requires lack of ignorance. Requires not the refusal to see racism exists. Requires not the refusal to see that it causes marginalization and fear to complain. Requires wanting to change. Requires empathy.
 

They exist for their communities. For those communities.
Remember. Asian American is incredibly diverse.
Your irrelevant comments about flatearthers and moonlanding deniers I will ignore.
I don't deny that the individuals placed into the perceived category are not diverse. All individuals are unique, as demonstrated by our DNA and personal history.

Flatearthers and moonlanding deniers are important, because existence of perceived communities can arise in the minds of their constituents, while unified by a fictional premise. That does not mean if is the same for Asian Americans. I am unsure on that account.
 


I don't deny that the individuals placed into the perceived category are not diverse. All individuals are unique, as demonstrated by our DNA and personal history.

Flatearthers and moonlanding deniers are important, because existence of perceived communities can arise in the minds of their constituents, while unified by a fictional premise. That does not mean if is the same for Asian Americans. I am unsure on that account.
Factually Asian Australian communities exist. To claim otherwise is ignorance. I live here. I know. Among their number are some friends.

Asian diasporas exist. As communities across the world. Not even in the same league as flatearthers or moonlanding deniers.
Denying Asian community diasporas exist is like being a flatearther. Or moonlanding denier.
 


Kaodi

Adventurer
This is why Socrates liked to scream at sophists.
The Protagoras is my favourite work by Plato - how he ferreted out of Protagoras that he actually believed the opposite of what he claimed to believe. I do not think it is uncommon for people, including people who consider themselves "good", to hold beliefs that are vulnerable in the same was Protagoras' were.
 

FaerieGodfather

Aberrant Druid
You know-- and bear with me here-- when you look at the way Dungeons & Dragons treats its mythological sources, the core rulebooks and the "Fake Europe" campaign settings aren't a whole hell of a lot better than Oriental Adventures. From a cultural perspective, Dungeons & Dragons is cheap trash. Being a D&D fan is like binge-watching Supernatural, writing your own fanfic based on each individual season of Supernatural, and then complaining that each season's bizarre tonal and continuity shifts have invalidated everything you wrote last season.

Cheap trash. But it's a lot of fun, and as a species we find meaning in what we engage with-- not the other way around.

Oriental Adventures is cheap trash, and it's rightfully being recognized for what it is... but I don't think the fact that it's cheap trash is the problem. The problem is that it's our cheap trash, filtering someone else's cultural heritage through our pop culture perspectives to turn it into cheap trash. And the problem is that we think the solution is for us to do it right, to do it respectfully, to filter the other culture's heritage through our academic perspectives to turn it into meaningful entertainment.

I don't want it done right. I want cheap trash. But... the key thing is, I want their cheap trash, their cultural heritage filtered through their pop culture lenses to make their cheap trash... that we are then more than welcome to dig through like the drunken, starving media raccoons that we are. I don't want faithful recreations of Chinese mythology in my D&D, I want to see real Chinese people treating real Chinese culture with the same care and respect that Gary Gygax and Eric Kripke treated their European source material-- which is to say, none at all-- and with the same consideration for Western sensibilities that early RPG writers showed for their potential Non-Western audiences.

And maybe I'm the wrong guy to ask, but I don't think pulling the original Oriental Adventures or the 21st century remake off the store shelves is going to bring us closer to that-- it's going to tell Western corporate media executives that products focusing on Non-Western cultures and narratives is risky and that the safe money lies in sticking with Western cultures and Western narratives and grinding them down a layer at a time until they're safe for modern liberal multicultural consumption.

The answer to Bad Art is never to destroy Bad Art. It is sometimes Better Art, and it is always More Art.

It's been two editions and more or less two decades since we've had an Oriental Adventures, and-- rightfully-- we're never going to get an Oriental Adventures again. But maybe instead of looking back and tearing down the Hollywood version of "oriental" D&D, it's time to finally see what the Hong Kong version of D&D, the Busan version of D&D, and the Tokusatsu versions of D&D would actually look like, in their own "middle kingdoms" with our Western traditions clumsily shoehorned in.

And then moreso, I want to see the Dungeons & Dragons that two middle-aged nerds from cultures I've never heard of make for eachother when they feel as safe as two middle-aged white nerds in Wisconsin did in the 1980s.

We have had a generation of white people making whitepeople trash, and we've had a generation of (mostly) white people trying (sometimes earnestly) to make BIPOC trash. Give me a generation of BIPOC making pure, unfiltered, authentic exploitative BIPOC trash... and I will pray to every one of my appropriated gods that I live long enough to see the cheap trash D&D produced by the generation after that. It will be amazing.
 

Factually Asian Australian communities exist. To claim otherwise is ignorance. I live here. I know. Among their number are some friends.

Asian diasporas exist. As communities across the world. Not even in the same league as flatearthers or moonlanding deniers.
Denying Asian community diasporas exist is like being a flatearther. Or moonlanding denier.
I think I figured out a way for us to move on. I believe that humans can hold and express emotional attachments that exuberant measurable properties. I think that you believe the existence of these and their tendency to manifest similarly in each member of the group constitutes the existence of a unified whole. In other words, each member of that group is in the position to experience the feeling of unity.

Is that correct?

If so, I disagree that the feeling unity constitutes actual unity, but is simply a feeling the happens to be felt by many individuals at once. They might all agree to constitute a community, but it is simply a manifestation common position and experience.
 


I think I figured out a way for us to move on. I believe that humans can hold and express emotional attachments that exuberant measurable properties. I think that you believe the existence of these and their tendency to manifest similarly in each member of the group constitutes the existence of a unified whole. In other words, each member of that group is in the position to experience the feeling of unity.

Is that correct?

If so, I disagree that the feeling unity constitutes actual unity, but is simply a feeling the happens to be felt by many individuals at once. They might all agree to constitute a community, but it is simply a manifestation common position and experience.
Shared and common interests and values and goals. Fellowship. Community. Never said anything about unity. Disunity can also exist in the community. Does not make it less of a community.
 

Shared and common interests and values and goals. Fellowship. Community. Never said anything about unity. Disunity can also exist in the community. Does not make it less of a community.
OK. So the same interests and values and goals exist in the minds of each community member. If so, where is the community, rather than the sense of community?

Edit: I see nothing wrong with the existence of a with "sense of community," only with the existence of an actual community.
 

OK. So the same interests and values and goals exist in the minds of each community member. If so, where is the community, rather than the sense of community?

Edit: I see nothing wrong with the existence of a with "sense of community," only with the existence of an actual community.
Exists as the community itself.

Do you agree in the existence of the Italian American community. The African American community. The Greek American community. The Latin American community. Etc
 

Exists as the community itself.

Do you agree in the existence of the Italian American community. The African American community. The Greek American community. The Latin American community. Etc
No. I do not believe in those either. I only believe in individuals who see themselves as part of those (non-existent) communities.
 

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