WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

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Aldarc

Legend
I really don't think so.

What you describe is not that far from any standard D&D setting. Ever read Mystara?
Not in great depth, but yes. I was not terribly impressed with it, and it has mostly faded into obscurity with the onset of more interesting settings in D&D. I enjoy Eberron, for example, because many (but not all) nations avoid being lazily copy-pasted clones of real world nations and it often explores how the magic of D&D impacts culture. I have also voiced my dislike of the 7th Sea setting Theah for being in the "uncanny valley" in its off-brand Europe setting. I have also said before that I don't think that pointing to D&D also having lazy caricatures of European nations works as an argument in favor of either D&D or the representation of Asian cultures in Oriental Adventures.

If the story about the settings is good and consistent and game has good mechanics, I couldn't care less about where they pulled their inspiration from.
But is the story about the settings good in OA? And there are a number of East Asian voices from those living in Euro-America who are telling you that it's not a good story because they find that it propagates harmful stereotypes about East Asian cultures and its peoples.

Is OA this level of bad though? I know its a hotchpotch of tropes from movies and mythology, inaccurate and just thrown together into one setting. But so is all of D&D. Its pulpy and trope filled, clearly written from an American point of view, for a western audience... but are its contents really that level of offensive?

Or is it harmless ignorance, similar to how a lot of anime represents stuff from Europe while clearly not doing any research?
Earlier @Umbran pointed out that there is not a proper symmetry in the power balance between the various actors in this exchange, between East Asian cultures depicting the Euro-America and Euro-America depicted East Asia, as well as noting complexities such as people of East Asian descent living in predominately white Euro-American cultures. In another thread, @Campbell also talked about the difference between "punching up" and "punching down" when it comes to how things are framed, which is also important to keep in mind.

Western Europe is actually fairly small when compared to East Asia. And Western Europe also had some fairly large cultural unifiers, namely the Roman Catholic Church, while also the Frankish Empire of Charlemagne & Co. kinda had a large cultural impact on how nations like France, the Holy Roman Empire, Italy, Belelux, Bohemia, and Hungary would develop due to their monarchical connections. Part of why the reason why we can often talk about Medieval Europe with some broad strokes is because of how pervasive the Roman Catholic Church was as an institution throughout Western Europe in the Middle Ages. So even when people spoke different languages and had different cultures, a lot of communication was done via Ecclesiastical Latin.

I do sometimes roll my eyes about how Judeo-Christianity is depicted in Japanese media, but I also do the same with a Western media that has essentially become religiously illiterate. But I don't really have a voice in how Japan depicts Euro-America. I do have a voice in how Euro-America depicts Japan or Euro-America depicts Euro-America. So we are seeing a number of people of East Asian descent living in Euro-America who are giving rise to their own voices about how their fellow Euro-Americans are depicting them in a fantasy elf game.
 

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Coroc

Hero
What is the salient point you trying to say here because this reads mostly like incoherent ranting.

This has been brought up before, but it's not particularly convincing for a variety of factors and reasons. But if you want a gold star sticker for not being offended by depictions of European culture in Japanese manga, then I can send you one a "This doesn't offend me" sticker in the mail.

I will try to put it into simple sentences:

In a perfect peaceful world, you should think about returning historic artifacts to their area of origin, for display to ALL of humanity.

In our real world some demand this be done no matter the consequences or the potential danger to this cultural heirloom of ALL mankind.

Those not so narrow-minded and ideology driven, see the ideal of returning artifacts to their area of origin outweighed by potential danger to these artifacts which are lost for good, if they get destroyed. In the meantime you can make people aware at least, that items on display might be stolen or acquired for cheap during e.g. colonization or wartime.


If you would have read my post to the end, you would have noticed, that I agreed with you on the need of getting people aware that most historic art is somehow stolen or acquired unjust. So if you call my wording of this incoherent ranting, then it is your incoherent ranting I replied to.

No sticker needed, because I need not elevate me for being empathic or tolerant. You seem to have thought I wanted to justify some evil stereotyping by mentioning the manga using European themes, well you are wrong. I just wanted to update your belief that no such thing (including aspects of stereotyping) exists, and I can give you several examples if needed.
 
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FireLance

Legend
As an Italian, I’ll never be pissed at being equated with pizza and pasta. We have the best food in the world, let everyone know.

The mafia comparison is definitely annoying, though. It’s like comparing all americans to the kkk: kind of unfair.
At the risk of sounding like I'm making excuses, I'd just like to say: my Italian-inspired halfling culture did have Mafia-inspired criminal organizations, but not every halfling was a member of those organizations - in the same way that not every orc is a Chaotic Evil raider.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
Meh, Halfings run the biggest crime syndicate in Eberron, I thought that was awesome. They aren't eating cannoli and wearing matching track suit sets of course, but they are somewhat plump and are nice to old ladies. Where's that leave us? I have no idea.
 

Sadras

Legend
We also have a place in our real world where all asian-derived stuffi is. It's called Asia.

Sounds like someone lacked some creativity to mix and match things. :rolleyes:

Offense 1: How dare they mix and match all asian history.
Offense 2: How dare they NOT mix and match all fantasy ethnicities in the same setting.

These offenses are broad enough to cater for all offense-seekers. Carry on regardless.
 

Sadras

Legend
At the risk of sounding like I'm making excuses, I'd just like to say: my Italian-inspired halfling culture did have Mafia-inspired criminal organizations...

Neat idea. ;) I was wondering how you connected Italians with Halflings.
Little Sicilians! Must steal it for my next campaign.
 
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Sadras

Legend
It may not be a history or geography book, but imagine that you were someone from an East Asian country and you saw your nation's cultural mythologies lazily butchered and combined with a tangentially related culture's mythologies? A mythological creature that is good or a folk hero is presented as a villainous monster? Or a monster entry that completely misrepresents what the creature is or what it represents. Or imagine if you saw your mythology as part of the mythology of another nation? Or imagine that there was a book called Occidental Adventures that presented pseudo-Germany as Nazis, pseudo-France being inhabited mostly by bullywugs, ancient Romans worshiping the Norse Pantheon, and the Spanish Reconquista taking place in pseudo-Norway. Sure, some people may enjoy it, but a lot of Europeans may be offended by how the fantasy around their native cultures are presented.

It is like you conventiently forgot about the entire BECMI setting, or the last few Hellenistic inspired 5e setting books.
 

MGibster

Legend
Various print materials have been going out of print and being unavailable since the creation of the printing press. Companies have always had a right to control when and where their materials are available, and choosing to not make them available is not equivalent to destruction. The public is not entitled to constant availability.

I agree that it isn't comparable to book burning. It's more comparable to people who try to ban books from libraries.
 

Danzauker

Adventurer
Meh, Halfings run the biggest crime syndicate in Eberron, I thought that was awesome. They aren't eating cannoli and wearing matching track suit sets of course, but they are somewhat plump and are nice to old ladies. Where's that leave us? I have no idea.

See, your remark borsers the offensive.

IIRC the last figures I read, have Italians on average thinner than Americans.

And I hate old ladies.
 


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