WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Xenonnonex]

I have no problems with a warning attached to the PDF. They already do it for movies after all. I recognize in this particular moment.

What i'm opposed to is:

1) the notion that a game setting or any fantasy work must be historically or culturally accurate. It's fantasy. If I want Italian Ninja Halflings in a book, it's my call.

2) the fact that only people of one ethnicity can write/create work about that. I find it blatantly segregationist.

3) banning or worse censoring/modification of old books and other art. Every work reflects in good and in bad the times and places it was written.

I'm pretty sure all future D&D products based on Asian cultures and tropes will be written much differently from 1E OA. 35 years have passed, society is different, sensibilities are different.

A few things.
No one is wanting historically accurate. Or even culturally accurate. That defeats what it means to be fantasy. As settings. What they are wanting is culturally sensitive work. Especially given historical and recent racism against Asians.

Who better to work with in this are who have lived in cultural experiences. And are part of these groups. No one is saying they must be written by these groups. They are saying these groups should be involved as cultural consultants. Then you would not have other people writing for these groups.

In some bad ways society is not different. Prejudices remain. Work on this we should.

 

[Derren]

In that light, instead of having white males dictate what is or is not acceptable, perhaps it should be given over to those of Japanese and Chinese (and also Korean probably) descent as those seem to be the heritages and history to whom the original OA took it's inspiration from. If they decided that there need to be notifications or references to history or even to take it down, it probably should be their decision rather than white males (or anyone else who is not of that heritage) making those decisions regarding it.

Why does the descent matter?
Someone with Japanese/Korean/Chinese/etc. roots born and raised in the US is an American and thus his opinion on the word oriental is not more valid than the opinion of a "white" American or Native American or African American.
If you really would care about what "the Asians" think of it then you would inquire what those who grew up in those cultures think of it and not just those who look like they could have.

 

[Danzauker]

A few things.
No one is wanting historically accurate. Or even culturally accurate. That defeats what it means to be fantasy. As settings. What they are wanting is culturally sensitive work. Especially given historical and recent racism against Asians.

Who better to work with in this are who have lived in cultural experiences. And are part of these groups. No one is saying they must be written by these groups. They are saying these groups should be involved as cultural consultants. Then you would not have other people writing for these groups.

In some bad ways society is not different. Prejudices remain. Work on this we should.

Ok, so we basically agree. And I'm quite sure this is the workflow that will be followed by Wotc in the future.

If it's not accuracy the issue here, then, not having the books here to check, what fails me to see is where in the 1E OA the unsensitive if not oltrageous stuff.

I'd like to kindly ask if comeone can provide some example. Except for the inaccuracies and generit but not malevolent stereotypes, I don't remember anything else.

The honor bound samurai, for example. That is just a generic trope as ever there was one. Even in One Piece you have honor obsessed samurai warriors, so unless you think Eiichiro Oda is racist against other Japanese, I don't see the point.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Late to the party but health warning seems like a stronger approach than ban here.

It is problematic for a couple of reasons. Firstly it's called Oriental Adventures but it's actually far more narrow in theme (essentially "Japanese mythology adventures with random monsters from other East Asian cultures") so it's misrepresentating itself and Eastern mythology pretty badly there. Second off, it's full of ludicrous exoticisation of stuff solely because it's "Eastern". And thirdly, whilst it's not used like the n-word "Oriental" is still used to disparage or more often to grossly generalise (often in a negative fashion) about people or cultures from the Far East. It doesn't have to be, but pretending it isn't is pretty damn silly.

So health warning seems smart.

 

[GreyLord]

Why does the descent matter?
Someone with Japanese/Korean/Chinese/etc. roots born and raised in the US is an American and thus his opinion on the word oriental is not more valid than the opinion of a "white" American or Native American.
If you really would care about what "the Asians" think of it then you would inquire what those who grew up in those cultures think of it and not just those who look like they could have.

I'm not sure I understand your statement, BUT...

Yes, some of those I game with are in China and some are in Japan.

I also have friends in the US that are Asian Americans and that I work closely with, one of whom just found out about this and is absolutely furious and Mr. Kwan right now (they contributed heavily to a document on DMsGuild that they and I both worked on. He worked on the Oriental Adventures part of a document on that site. From their response a few minutes ago I would say their views do NOT agree with Kwan's (And in addition, that Kwan would want to disrupt the income of a fellow individual who also has a background of Asian descent) and the arguments are not currently sitting easy with them.

There IS a document with the term Oriental in it (Oriental Adventures actually, but not the 1e or 3e version, but based on them) that was written by a Japanese individual on DMsGuild right now. This push could also affect an Asian individual directly, and to me would actually stink MORE of discrimination if that was so, than if things were left as they were.

It makes one wonder what actually is going on. Is the argument to take down OA or change it's name really representative of the Asian Community, or is it more of a local anachronism that may be different in various parts of the world, or even the Americas?

Edit: As I said, I understand that the term can be offensive to some, which is why they should have it changed by those who have that heritage. However, it should not be a small group who are isolated in their small culture, but a general group of those of Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Mongolian cultures to make such decisions and to get a broader sense of how offensive it is in general to that group, rather than an individual claiming to speak for all of them.

 

[Derren]

I'm not sure I understand your statement, BUT...

My statement is part of a bigger issue I have that people tend to argue that the colour of someones skin enables him to speak for an entire culture or even continent, no matter where and how he was raised.
I.E. because someone is black his opinion on a book about some parts of Africa is somehow more valuable even though he might be a 3rd generation American who never set foot on African soil.
Or in this case that just because someone looks Asian his opinion on how Oriental Adventure portraits some Asian cultures is more valid than the one of a white person with the same upbringing.

 

[Xenonnonex]

My statement is part of a bigger issue I have that people tend to argue that the colour of someones skin enables him to speak for an entire culture or even continent, no matter where and how he was raised.
I.E. because someone is black his opinion on a book about some parts of Africa is somehow more valuable even though he might be a 3rd generation American who never set foot on African soil.
Or in this case that just because someone looks Asian his opinion on how Oriental Adventure portraits some Asian cultures is more valid than the one of a white person with the same upbringing.

Hence lived in cultural experiences. You know raised in the culture. You can be both Asian and American. Asian American.

 

[GreyLord]

My statement is more part of a bigger issue I have that people tend to argue that the colour of someones skin enables him to speak for an entire culture or even continent, no matter where and how he was raised.
I.E. because someone is black his opinion on a book about Africa is somehow more valuable even though he might be a 3rd generation American who never set foot on African soil.
Or in this case that just because someone looks Asian his opinion on how Oriental Adventure portraits Asian cultures is more valid than the one of a white person with the same upbringing.

I can see your point.

However, I also understand how some things can be highly offensive to people. In order to try to avoid controversial things, I will take an example that I hope will not offend others in a racial form...it is just an example to try to explain it.

For example, let's take someone who is Irish. In years past there was a great amount of discrimination against the Irish Immigrants to the Americas. Now let's say a person today, who is 5th generation American sees a portrayal of their relative who immigrated. That relative was very intelligent and started a business which today has given their family a great amount of wealth. In a book, instead of portraying them as a smart individual who started a business, they portray that relative as a foolish individual who lost everything and died in a gutter. Even though it was long ago, it offends the family members today tremendously. It also can be seen to imply things about the family today, their family business, and the quality of those people in the family business.

It's vastly different, but it shows how things that are about the past in another place can still be offensive to those that are here today in our modern times.

It is important to recognize when something is offensive, and to try to not offend others. It is normally considered polite to not go out and offend others on purpose.

Now, from what I've seen, the item that is thought to be offensive by some of a specific heritage are not necessarily seen as offensive to everyone of that heritage (which I think could be controversial in and of itself). Those that are offended are pushing for certain things, but those same things they are pushing for may be contrary to what others of that same heritage think.

Which is why I think that there may be some things that need to be done, but by those who are part of the heritage that it affects and which it could be seen as offensive. Instead of just jumping into it blindly though, they should probably try to get or gauge the thoughts of ALL sides of that community, because by doing what one thinks they should do, it may just affect another in that same group in a bad way or offensive way. Talking it over among those who are in those groups and letting them decide the best way to be less offensive or non-offensive to them may be the right way to go about it rather than those who are unaffected by it overall.

 

[Bohandas]

Or imagine that there was a book called Occidental Adventures that presented pseudo-Germany as Nazis, pseudo-France being inhabited mostly by bullywugs, ancient Romans worshiping the Norse Pantheon, and the Spanish Reconquista taking place in pseudo-Norway.

 

[Voadam]

Yes, there is one guy who is asking the product not be sold. But he isn't on these forums, and no one here agrees with him. Literally. Not a single poster has said "they should stop selling it immediately", everyone has simply agreed that it is problematic, and we should probably put a disclaimer on it to acknowledge it wasn't the greatest depiction of the Far East ever penned.

From the first page:

About damn time this was addressed.

and

Call it Kara-Tur Adventures -> the new book on these ideas and inspiration.
Can bin outdated ideas and books.

"Can bin outdated ideas and books." sounds like endorsing removing it from sale.