WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Aldarc]

what does come next?
Filter all museums to only depict things we consider to be politically correct today?

The more pertinent conversation museums and public historians are having is about the ownership, possession, and return of cultural artifacts, particularly by colonizers and imperial powers. That said, many museums are often updating how they present cultures through their exhibits such that they accurately reflect current historical understandings.

 

[Horwath]

That's what I meant. They put all the asian-derived stuff in the same place because they lacked the creativity to mix and match things

it's not a history book or geography book. It's fantasy book that took inspiration from asian continent and made their own version of it.
And in 260 page book, you cannot mix and match a lot

 

[Danzauker]

That's what I meant. They put all the asian-derived stuff in the same place because they lacked the creativity to mix and match things

We also have a place in our real world where all asian-derived stuffi is. It's called Asia.

 

[Danzauker]

I'm a person of Chinese descent living in Singapore, and my view is very likely coloured by my being in a relative position of privilege in my country: upper middle class in a majority ethnic Chinese country.

I was probably in my mid-teens when I got my copy of Oriental Adventures. I had already been playing D&D (specifically, 1E/AD&D) for some time and I was also familiar with Unearthed Arcana. So, I saw nothing wrong with the Comeliness attribute or racial ability score penalties and maximums. To me, they were part of D&D as a whole, and not something specifically "exotic" or "oriental".

To me, it was just another sourcebook. I was more interested in investigating the powergaming potential of a kensai/ninja character than whether the korobokuru portrayed the Japanese in an unflattering light. For that matter, I would no more equate the korobokuru with Japanese than I would dwarves with Germans, elves with the French, or halflings with Italians (despite drawing heavily on German, French and Italian cultures and accents to portray dwarves, elves and halflings in my games).

More to the point, it was a sourcebook written by Westerners viewing Eastern cultures through a Western lens. Of course they would get something wrong. Anyway, my teenage self's reaction wasn't to be offended. It was more along the lines of: fancy getting that wrong. You really should have done better research. Heh heh heh.

That said, I would encourage those gamers who feel more strongly about it than I do to actually create material that is more repectful of and more accurately portrays Asian culture. One of the great advantages of this day and age is that you don't need to be a major publishing company to make your creations accessible.

As for me, I'm currently working on a paladin solo campaign and I sincerely hope the Westerners (and the French in particular) don't criticize it for not being respectful of the Twelve Peers of Charlemagne.

Interesting read. I generally like reading posts of non american players, like I am, reporting their experiences and comments on the game. I find them often informative because, let's admitted, all of us non americans ave been seen, portrayed and incorporated in the game through a North American lens.

May I ask you what makes you think that Halflings are the counterpart of Italians in 1E? I honestly hanven't read the books in a while, and I don't have them right in front of me now, but I never made that connection, and neither did any of my friends, and I AM italian!

The most I remember is that Halflings are loosely based on Englishmen, more or less like Tolkien's Hobbits.

I'm really interested in reading where that comes from.

 

[Aldarc]

it's not a history book or geography book. It's fantasy book that took inspiration from asian continent and made their own version of it.
And in 260 page book, you cannot mix and match a lot

It may not be a history or geography book, but imagine that you were someone from an East Asian country and you saw your nation's cultural mythologies lazily butchered and combined with a tangentially related culture's mythologies? A mythological creature that is good or a folk hero is presented as a villainous monster? Or a monster entry that completely misrepresents what the creature is or what it represents. Or imagine if you saw your mythology as part of the mythology of another nation? Or imagine that there was a book called Occidental Adventures that presented pseudo-Germany as Nazis, pseudo-France being inhabited mostly by bullywugs, ancient Romans worshiping the Norse Pantheon, and the Spanish Reconquista taking place in pseudo-Norway. Sure, some people may enjoy it, but a lot of Europeans may be offended by how the fantasy around their native cultures are presented.

 

[Coroc]

The more pertinent conversation museums and public historians are having is about the ownership, possession, and return of cultural artifacts, particularly by colonizers and imperial powers. That said, many museums are often updating how they present cultures through their exhibits such that they accurately reflect current historical understandings.

Oh yes? And deploying cultural heritage of the whole humanity of immeasurable value into a war zone or into the danger to be vandalized by fanatics or disappearing because some warlord dictator sells it to some criminals to buy himself more weapons?
I know what I do prefer, in my interest and in the interest of the generations to come, I rather see them handled safe into public accessible museums which are in, so to say, mostly peaceful countries. Also there these artifacts will can be conserved so that they do not take damage, without stressing the limited funds of a potential owner nation, which would be invested better into wellbeing of their populace.
If at all then as you pointed out, the discussion about - from todays view - questionable or outright wrong methods of acquisition attached to exhibitions, to get awareness that these aren't nice holiday antiquities which grandgrandpa brought home from Africa is more important.

 

[Coroc]

It may not be a history or geography book, but imagine that you were someone from an East Asian country and you saw your nation's cultural mythologies lazily butchered and combined with a tangentially related culture's mythologies? A mythological creature that is good or a folk hero is presented as a villainous monster? Or a monster entry that completely misrepresents what the creature is or what it represents. Or imagine if you saw your mythology as part of the mythology of another nation? Or imagine that there was a book called Occidental Adventures that presented pseudo-Germany as Nazis, pseudo-France being inhabited mostly by bullywugs, ancient Romans worshiping the Norse Pantheon, and the Spanish Reconquista taking place in pseudo-Norway. Sure, some people may enjoy it, but a lot of Europeans may be offended by how the fantasy around their native cultures are presented.

Just look into some of the Japanese manga comics, you find all sorts of European myths reflavored and remastered. I never felt upset by it.

 

[Aldarc]

Oh yes? And deploying cultural heritage of the whole humanity of immeasurable value into a war zone or into the danger to be vandalized by fanatics or disappearing because some warlord dictator sells it to some criminals to buy himself more weapons?
I know what I do prefer, in my interest and in the interest of the generations to come, I rather see them handled safe into public accessible museums which are in, so to say, mostly peaceful countries. Also there these artifacts will can be conserved so that they do not take damage, without stressing the limited funds of a potential owner nation, which would be invested better into wellbeing of their populace.
If at all then as you pointed out, the discussion about - from todays view - questionable or outright wrong methods of acquisition attached to exhibitions, to get awareness that these aren't nice holiday antiquities which grandgrandpa brought home from Africa is more important.

What is the salient point you trying to say here because this reads mostly like incoherent ranting.

Just look into some of the Japanese manga comics, you find all sorts of European myths reflavored and remastered. I never felt upset by it.

This has been brought up before, but it's not particularly convincing for a variety of factors and reasons. But if you want a gold star sticker for not being offended by depictions of European culture in Japanese manga, then I can send you one a "This doesn't offend me" sticker in the mail.

 

[Imaculata]

It may not be a history or geography book, but imagine that you were someone from an East Asian country and you saw your nation's cultural mythologies lazily butchered and combined with a tangentially related culture's mythologies? A mythological creature that is good or a folk hero is presented as a villainous monster? Or a monster entry that completely misrepresents what the creature is or what it represents. Or imagine if you saw your mythology as part of the mythology of another nation? Or imagine that there was a book called Occidental Adventures that presented pseudo-Germany as Nazis, pseudo-France being inhabited mostly by bullywugs, ancient Romans worshiping the Norse Pantheon, and the Spanish Reconquista taking place in pseudo-Norway. Sure, some people may enjoy it, but a lot of Europeans may be offended by how the fantasy around their native cultures are presented.

Is OA this level of bad though? I know its a hotchpotch of tropes from movies and mythology, inaccurate and just thrown together into one setting. But so is all of D&D. Its pulpy and trope filled, clearly written from an American point of view, for a western audience... but are its contents really that level of offensive?

Or is it harmless ignorance, similar to how a lot of anime represents stuff from Europe while clearly not doing any research?

 

[Danzauker]

It may not be a history or geography book, but imagine that you were someone from an East Asian country and you saw your nation's cultural mythologies lazily butchered and combined with a tangentially related culture's mythologies? A mythological creature that is good or a folk hero is presented as a villainous monster? Or a monster entry that completely misrepresents what the creature is or what it represents. Or imagine if you saw your mythology as part of the mythology of another nation? Or imagine that there was a book called Occidental Adventures that presented pseudo-Germany as Nazis, pseudo-France being inhabited mostly by bullywugs, ancient Romans worshiping the Norse Pantheon, and the Spanish Reconquista taking place in pseudo-Norway. Sure, some people may enjoy it, but a lot of Europeans may be offended by how the fantasy around their native cultures are presented.

I really don't think so.

What you describe is not that far from any standard D&D setting. Ever read Mystara?