Dungeons & Dragons May Not Come Back to Greyhawk After 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide

Wizards of the Coast does not appear to have future plans for the Greyhawk setting past the 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide. Speaking at a press event earlier this month, Dungeons & Dragons game architect Chris Perkins explained that the inclusion of Greyhawk campaign setting material in the upcoming rulebook was meant to stand on its own. "Basically, we're saying 'Hey DMs, we're giving you Greyhawk as a foundation on which you can build your own setting stuff,'" Perkins said when asked about future Greyhawk setting material. "Whether we get back to Greyhawk or not in some capacity I cannot say, but that's our intention for now. This is the sandbox, it's Greyhawk. Go off and run Greyhawk or Greyhawk-like campaigns with this if you wish. We may not come to this version of Greyhawk for a while because we DMs to own it and play with it. This is not a campaign setting where I think we need to go in and start defining large sections of the world and adding more weight of content that DMs have to sit through in order to feel like they're running a proper Greyhawk campaign."

The 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide includes a campaign setting gazetteer focused on the Greyhawk setting, one of D&D's earliest campaign settings. The use of Greyhawk is intended to be an example for DMs on how to build a full-fledged campaign setting, with an overview of major conflicts and places to explore within the world. New maps of both Oerth and the city of Greyhawk are also included in the rulebook.

However, while it seems like Wizards isn't committing to future Greyhawk campaign setting material, Perkins admitted that the fans still have a say in the matter. "We're not so immutable with our plans that if the fans rose up and said 'Give us something Greyhawk,' that we would say 'No, never,'" Perkins said. "That won't happen."

Perkins also teased the appearance of more campaign settings in the future. "We absolutely will be exploring new D&D worlds and that door is always open," Perkins said.

 

[Parmandur]

I think I have to count as a big Greyhawk fan. It is my default setting for FRPGing. I've been using it since 1984 (I think it was; maybe 1985 at the latest). I have the Folio, the boxed set, the Five Shall be One modues, From the Ashes, City of Greyhawk, Treasures of Greyhawk, The Adventure Begins, and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. My GH shelf also includes a copy of the Rogues Gallery, the Sargent stuff (Iuz, Marklands, City of Skulls), Fate of Istus (not a very good work), Reynolds' Scarlet Brotherhood, the A through G through D modules, etc. I have a copy of Ivid the Undying on my hard drive. I think the only thing I'm missing is a copy of the GH Wars boxed set.

And I could not give two hoots about this change to the Circle of Eight, or Jallazari's backstory. It is so minor, and so easy to incorporate or to ignore as takes the fancy of any particular Greyhawk-er, that it is almost beyond irrelevance. The notion that it is some sort of measure of the quality of work in the current DMG is farcical, in my view.

Looking at Greyhawk material as game aids, thwt can help with preping and playing games, it is clear that while theybhelp...a DM is going tonhabe to make up a whole lot themselves, or discover in play.

Focusing on "purity" of "canon" saps the material of it's utility as a game prep tool, and always just strikes me as counter-productive.

 

[Black Dougal]

Has anyone actually ever gotten high in the High Quarter?

 

[MonsterEnvy]

No, the points he makes are:-

• Queen Yolande of Celene was a complex character in the original setting. She is a proud and distant character, affected by the loss of her consort to Lortmil orcs a few centuries ago, which spurred her to initiate the brutal Hateful Wars, ultimately causing the fall of the Pomarj. Now she refuses to aid to neighboring lands to avoid further elven deaths. He contrasts this with the new version who is a happy-go-luck ex-adventurer hiring outside PCs to do adventures.
• In the original, Jallazari joined the Circle of Eight, as one of its nine elite wizards - it's a society of wizards, not an adventuring company open to any class with magic abilities - that more resembles its predecessor the Citadel of Eight. In the revised version, however, Jallazari is a warlock who gained her power by making a pact with a Celestial, rather than becoming an archmage through rigorous study. This change arguably reduces the theme of female empowerment in her character.
• The World of Greyhawk boxed set or folio are set in 576 CY. The City of Greyhawk boxed set is set later in 581 CY (which is why Jallazari is a member on probation, replacing Bucknard). The guys making Greyhawk 2024 appear to have smudged them together to make their new 576 CY gazetteer. Incidentally the text in boxed set, which was written in 1989, even has the archmage Tenser call out the fact that the Circle of Eight has until her acceptance been an "old coot's drinking club" or some such.

Point 1. What suggests that Yolande is happy-go-lucky? Nothing I see written in the Lore Glossary or Greyhawk section suggests she could not have initiated a war or is against further elven deaths. Hiring Adventures cause she does not wish to risk her own citizens makes tons of sense in fact.

Point 2. Otto is a Bard now so the Circle of Eight seems to just be spellcasters which I have no problem with. Still more exclusive than the Citadel. It's just not a big deal.

Point 3. So what?

 

[TiQuinn]

Queen Yolande of Celene was a complex character in the original setting. She is a proud and distant character, affected by the loss of her consort to Lortmil orcs a few centuries ago, which spurred her to initiate the brutal Hateful Wars, ultimately causing the fall of the Pomarj. Now she refuses to aid to neighboring lands to avoid further elven deaths. He contrasts this with the new version who is a happy-go-luck ex-adventurer hiring outside PCs to do adventures.

Point 1. What suggests that Yolande is happy-go-lucky? Nothing I see written in the Lore Glossary or Greyhawk section suggests she could not have initiated a war or is against further elven deaths. Hiring Adventures cause she does not wish to risk her own citizens makes tons of sense in fact.

To MonsterEnvy’s point, where did the original author of that article ever come to the conclusion that Yolande was particularly complex character? The portion on Celene from the LGG goes through the same details mentioned about the death of her consort, and the Hateful Wars and the isolationism…but one would have to apply a good deal of their own internal headcanon to actually give Yolande much of a personality because the entire block reads like an Encyclopedia Brittanica entry (yes, I’m dating myself with that one.)

And frankly that’s a problem that I have with Greyhawk or at least what other people claim to be canon. There’s so very little actual material outside of the Greyhawk Wars and From the Ashes era that getting upset over changes in canon seems completely pointless.

 

[Stuart Kerrigan]

Point 1. What suggests that Yolande is happy-go-lucky? Nothing I see written in the Lore Glossary or Greyhawk section suggests she could not have initiated a war or is against further elven deaths. Hiring Adventures cause she does not wish to risk her own citizens makes tons of sense in fact.

Point 2. Otto is a Bard now so the Circle of Eight seems to just be spellcasters which I have no problem with. Still more exclusive than the Citadel. It's just not a big deal.

Point 3. So what?

1. See the Scions of Elemental Evil. She's pretty perky and hires some outside PCs to do her bidding. It mentions that she is a recent ex-adventurer and general all round chill dudess.

2. As to the Lore Glossary, well the purpose of that is supposed to be to gather information from the 50 years of D&D products. However it largely rewrote the Greyhawk lore by changing key characters, which is the opposite of its stated goals (and before someone challenges me watch their promo - it doesn't say "We're updating everything to our new vision").

 

[Stuart Kerrigan]

Point 2. Otto is a Bard now so the Circle of Eight seems to just be spellcasters which I have no problem with. Still more exclusive than the Citadel. It's just not a big deal.

Well, IMHO it dilutes the flavour of the most iconic WoG organisation. Agree to disagree I guess.

Point 3. So what?

It seems clear most of the folk on this board think the changes aren't a big deal. They aren't in the sense it is an imaginary world after all, you can't imagine it wrong. I still don't have to like them though and can think the original setting was a far more consistent and logically thought out work. Again, agree to disagree, I'm sure you will love what WotC has in store for their next rebooted campaign setting.

 

[Zeromaru X]

It seems clear most of the folk on this board think the changes aren't a big deal. They aren't in the sense it is an imaginary world after all, you can't imagine it wrong. I still don't have to like them though and can think the original setting was a far more consistent and logically thought out work

To be honest, the changes don't mean anything to me because I'm a newcomer to Greyhawk, so I don't have any attachments to the old materials. That said, I don't see the new stuff as irreconcilable with the old lore as the author of that article says.

For instance, nothing in the DMG contradicts that Yolande is depressed. That she appears smiling in a picture while condecorating some adventurers doesn't mean she is not depressed. She can be masking, people with depression do that all the time (yeah, it's my theory, but is as valid as the theory that she is a happy-go-lucky person the author from the article states).

I also think that having a few non-humans in the setting is interesting, as is a contrast to the human dominance of the Flanaess. I don't see it as "non-interesting" as the author claims. But, in the end, what is interesting is subjective, what is interesting to me may be not interesting to you, and viceversa. That doesn't makes the Greyhawk info in the DMG "pure garbage" as the author of the article claims.

All in all, the Greyhawk 2024 is good enough to have picked my interest despite the reservations I had with the setting (reservations completely valid, given opinions like those of the author of the article, that make people who like the current D&D lore like me feel unwelcome to try Greyhawk to begin with. In that regard, Dave Arneson's Blackmoor proved to be superior to Greyhawk, as that setting didn't break just because they added a few dragonborn to the setting... Point for Dave Arneson, I guess).

 

[mamba]

In that regard, Dave Arneson's Blackmoor proved to be superior to Greyhawk, as that setting didn't break just because they added a few dragonborn to the setting

not specific to your post but spinning off from it, what are good Blackmoor resources?

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

Is this any good or should I stick to 1e?

 

[Zeromaru X]

I just have the 4e book (that it has the same lore from the 3e book, but updated with 4e species), but the 3e/d20 line is regarded as very good. There is also the living adventures for the d20 line, that you can get in Havard's Blackmoor/Mystara website.

 

[Stuart Kerrigan]

To be honest, the changes don't mean anything to me because I'm a newcomer to Greyhawk, so I don't have any attachments to the old materials. That said, I don't see the new stuff as irreconcilable with the old lore as the author of that article says.

Ah, so it is us old-timers job to show you as much of the world and let you judge what you like.

For instance, nothing in the DMG contradicts that Yolande is depressed.

It's not that she's depressed (in fact she probably has a jolly old time in her court), its that she and Celene are withdrawn from the non-elven/fay world and outsiders. Hiring a group of adventurers to go check out a cult 5 days down the road isn't quite in keeping with that.

I also think that having a few non-humans in the setting is interesting, as is a contrast to the human dominance of the Flanaess.

I'm not sure what you mean by non-humans but old Greyhawk was very much in the Tolkien vein. In the Lord of the Rings the hobbits, dwarves, elves etc. all have their own lands separate from the humans and interactions between the species, while not unknown, is worth commenting on. The lore of Greyhawk is replete with halfing burrows, gnome enclaves, dwarven fortresses etc. that technically owe fealty to whatever country they are in but are largely left to their own devices.

Personally I'd have kept Greyhawk with its old skool leanings of being a setting where you play the 1e/2e/3e old races (human, elf, dwarf, halfling, gnome etc.) to differentiate from the Forgotten Realms where everything and every race goes myself. But I've no problem with new races - Dragonborn would be a bit hard to crowbar in I admit, but there was an old atlas of the surrounding lands of the Flanaess that included some "Empire of the Dragon" location. TBH they're too similar to the Draconians of Dragonlance though.

Tieflings can be added easily, though I think they work best in Planescape's Casablanca of the Planes type setting. In fact in my recent DM's Guild offering, available here for free/PWYW (shameless plug) I even suggest a way to incorporate them into the game without redesigning the entire world to accommodate them, and giving the effected PCs a rather interesting background...

Goliaths - I'd have some Spartacus character leading a revolution of the slave-class of the giants in a reimagining of Against the Giants, since those modules were pretty hack/slash back in the day. Probably wouldn't make one President of the Yeomanry (currently at war with the giants) though.

Orcs - never saw much difference between a full-blood orc and a 3e/4e/5e half-orc to be honest. It ain't easy being green.

All in all, the Greyhawk 2024 is good enough to have picked my interest despite the reservations I had with the setting (reservations completely valid, given opinions like those of the author of the article, that make people who like the current D&D lore like me feel unwelcome to try Greyhawk to begin with.

There's nothing wrong with liking 5e D&D lore and 2024 Greyhawk. It's just 2024 Greyhawk probably comes at the expense of any future development of the "classic" setting. Not that I suspect there was going to be much of that anyway, but one dared to hope that someday...

In that regard, Dave Arneson's Blackmoor proved to be superior to Greyhawk, as that setting didn't break just because they added a few dragonborn to the setting... Point for Dave Arneson, I guess).

Did they add dragonborn to Blackmoor?