According to the PHB, Dwarves get a +2 to saves against spells and spell-like effects (IIRC). If a Wizard casts a spell like Command on a Dwarf, it seems obvious that the +2 would apply. What about spells like Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Web, Fireball, Melf's Acid Arrow, etc. where there's a physical element brought into play? Would the +2 apply to saves against these spells because they fall under the phrase "spell like effects"?
Dwarven Resistance to Magic
- Thread starter Joust
- Start date
Bronn Spellforger
First Post
Yes to all. Spell and spell-like effect cover almost every spell that directly affects the dwarf.
Which, of course, makes dwarves the best race to be!
Which, of course, makes dwarves the best race to be!
Artoomis
First Post
Ask yourself a question:
Is it a spell? (Fireball, Lightning Bolt, et. al. are spells)
If the answer is yes, the +2 bonus applies.
If the answer is no, then ask if it's a spell-like effect.
If yes, the bonus applies.
Of course, some spells have no save (like Magic Missle) and so you get no save still. The save is not "0," which would allow you at add to it, but nonexistent.
Is it a spell? (Fireball, Lightning Bolt, et. al. are spells)
If the answer is yes, the +2 bonus applies.
If the answer is no, then ask if it's a spell-like effect.
If yes, the bonus applies.
Of course, some spells have no save (like Magic Missle) and so you get no save still. The save is not "0," which would allow you at add to it, but nonexistent.
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coyote6
Adventurer
Of course, the Monster Manual says dwarves get a +2 to Will saves vs. spells and spell-like effects. ISTR this being repeated in other places -- character writeups & the like.
Me, I house ruled that it is +2 to Will saves. I like stubborn dwarves, not magic-resistant dwarves whose magic resistance uses a different mechanic from that of every other magic resistant entity (e.g., SR). Besides, dwarves get plenty of other benefits.
Me, I house ruled that it is +2 to Will saves. I like stubborn dwarves, not magic-resistant dwarves whose magic resistance uses a different mechanic from that of every other magic resistant entity (e.g., SR). Besides, dwarves get plenty of other benefits.
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EOL
First Post
I did have a player with a dwarven character get really mad when I wouldn't let him use the +2 on the reflex save for the Grease spell. I'm still not sure I made the right decision, but it seemed like it was a reflex save because the floor was slippery not directly as a result of the spell.
I like the idea of the +2 only being for will saves. I agree that Dwarves are powerful enough as it is.
I like the idea of the +2 only being for will saves. I agree that Dwarves are powerful enough as it is.
coyote6
Adventurer
I asked the Sage in Nov. 2000; his response was, "I suspect the MM is wrong. The text is question was taken directly from the PH manuascript, which seems to have changed before going into print."
So, the MM errata (if it's ever revealed) will probably change the MM entry; but originally, the PH had it as only vs. Will saves. Which explains character writeups in modules having it -- the authors were probably working from the PH manuscript, rather than finished product. Me, I'll still go with the vs. Will version -- it's the original!
So, the MM errata (if it's ever revealed) will probably change the MM entry; but originally, the PH had it as only vs. Will saves. Which explains character writeups in modules having it -- the authors were probably working from the PH manuscript, rather than finished product. Me, I'll still go with the vs. Will version -- it's the original!
coyote6 said:So, the MM errata (if it's ever revealed) will probably change the MM entry; but originally, the PH had it as only vs. Will saves. Which explains character writeups in modules having it -- the authors were probably working from the PH manuscript, rather than finished product. Me, I'll still go with the vs. Will version -- it's the original!
If you're going to use the Will save-only version, it might make sense to also change it to apply to charm and compulsion effects in general, rather than just spells and spell-like effects.
Dwarves are funny. If they were a non standard race they'd be at least +1ECL.
They gain a "strong" stat (con) and lose on a "weak" stat (cha), as per the DMG.
They get +2 to all saves (+2 vs poison and spells... whats left really?).
They get +4 AC vs giants, +1 to hit orcs, etc.
Oh but they move slower (apparently that balances out all the other bonuses), but are still medium sized creatures (and can use all the weapons just like any other race).
Comon WotC what were you thinking? You broke every one of your own rules on dwarves, and yet Gensai are +1ECL even though they are worse than dwarves in almost every respect.
Even with just a +2 to Will saves they beat out elves (+2 on Enchantments only) and every other race (save maybe humans in some situations, but I'd give the edge to dwarves).
They gain a "strong" stat (con) and lose on a "weak" stat (cha), as per the DMG.
They get +2 to all saves (+2 vs poison and spells... whats left really?).
They get +4 AC vs giants, +1 to hit orcs, etc.
Oh but they move slower (apparently that balances out all the other bonuses), but are still medium sized creatures (and can use all the weapons just like any other race).
Comon WotC what were you thinking? You broke every one of your own rules on dwarves, and yet Gensai are +1ECL even though they are worse than dwarves in almost every respect.
Even with just a +2 to Will saves they beat out elves (+2 on Enchantments only) and every other race (save maybe humans in some situations, but I'd give the edge to dwarves).
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