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E6: The Game Inside D&D (new revision)

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Kunimatyu

First Post
rycanada said:
A question for the regulars: How often do you game?

For the past year I've done a weekly D&D game and a biweekly True20 game. The D&D campaign just finished, the True20 is about to, and once I take my RPG sabbatical, I intend to start back up with a game of E6.
 

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stoneshape

First Post
Hi all

I have three related questions concerning BAB 6 1.

1st, In standard D&D how much is that second attack worth? What about the third and fourth extra attack?

2nd, In standard E6 how much is that second attack worth?

3rd, In standard E6 how much is that second attack worth if only the fighter could obtain it?

thanks
 

TwoSix

Unserious gamer
Supporter
Cheiromancer said:
I'm kinda puzzled by these attempts to break the level 6 ceiling (4th level spell slots, feats to increase skill rank caps, Improved Critical, large Wildshape, etc.) If you want to get access to level 7 or 8 abilities, allow level advancement at long intervals. If you are going to take away the most distinctive feature of E6 (a hard level limit), then why not be straightforward about it?

To my mind, the point of E6 isn't being capped at 6th level abilities, it's to maintain the game at the sweet spot of the second quartile of D&D (the "heroic fantasy" quartile). Since the quartile is from 6th-10th level, 6th level lets you stop level advancement at the lower end and then get to the fun part of feat advancement all while staying in the sweet spot. Giving out some slightly higher level abilities won't break the quartile, as long as you don't give out some of the gamebreaking spells that exist at 4th and 5th spell level.
 

Ry

Explorer
TwoSix said:
To my mind, the point of E6 isn't being capped at 6th level abilities, it's to maintain the game at the sweet spot of the second quartile of D&D (the "heroic fantasy" quartile). Since the quartile is from 6th-10th level, 6th level lets you stop level advancement at the lower end and then get to the fun part of feat advancement all while staying in the sweet spot. Giving out some slightly higher level abilities won't break the quartile, as long as you don't give out some of the gamebreaking spells that exist at 4th and 5th spell level.

TwoSix has nailed it here. The goal of E6 is heroic fantasy; the principles of E6 are familiarity and speed (hence minimal changes). The cap at 6th level is the means to that end.
 

TwoSix

Unserious gamer
Supporter
rycanada said:
TwoSix has nailed it here. The goal of E6 is heroic fantasy; the principles of E6 are familiarity and speed (hence minimal changes). The cap at 6th level is the means to that end.

There are three main reasons to keep the cap at 6, I feel.

1) Limit commonly available magic to 3rd level. High enough to produce fantastic effects, low enough to not impact game complexity meanigfully.

2) Limit skill bonuses to about +15, give or take. This allows for the "Einstein was a 5th level physicist" feel.

3) Overall power balance between the classes is very solid at 6th level. Spellcasters have come into their own, while pure fighting classes have gotten their 2nd attack.
 

Thaedrus

First Post
The absolute spell level can be capped at 3rd level and skill levels can be capped at +15 while still giving access to higher than 6th level abilities. This may have consequences for class balance though.

Standard D&D caps spell level at 9, even though taking (the level +1)/2 mechanic would imply that there should be a 10th spell level at a level 20 cap. Maybe 3rd level spells are all that you get, even though you can get say 8th level abilities.
 

TwoSix

Unserious gamer
Supporter
Thaedrus said:
The absolute spell level can be capped at 3rd level and skill levels can be capped at +15 while still giving access to higher than 6th level abilities. This may have consequences for class balance though.

Standard D&D caps spell level at 9, even though taking (the level +1)/2 mechanic would imply that there should be a 10th spell level at a level 20 cap. Maybe 3rd level spells are all that you get, even though you can get say 8th level abilities.

In my own game (not for E6 a whole), I'm more than comfortable with that. Heck, most of the feats in the PHB2 I'd let a E6 fighter have, although maybe not till they were at 6+15 or 6+20 feats.
 

Ry

Explorer
For E6 as I present it, I'm more comfortable adding feats slowly to the system, for reasons I detailed in the FAQ. But I think everybody's getting on the same page here, and I like that.
 

Evilhalfling

Adventurer
rycanada said:
A question for the regulars: How often do you game?

3-4 times per month ~ 5-6 hrs per session.

Stoneshape:
1st, In standard D&D how much is that second attack worth? What about the third and fourth extra attack?

The 2nd attack is Huge in standard- especially early, Full BAB characters normally will have enough other bonuses to hit with the 2nd attack much of the time – as an example 2 full BAB PCs in my group are at +12/+7 and +11/+6 while the cleric is at +8-10 depending on buffs. The 3rd attack is useless, until you get a 4th, then the 4th is useless. For 2 weapon fighters the first -5 is actually a -7 and it will hit rarely, but can occasionally add up, esp. with SA or other bonus damage.

2nd, In standard E6 how much is that second attack worth?
Close to the same – you can get enough bonuses to make the attack important,

3rd, In standard E6 how much is that second attack worth if only the fighter could obtain it?
Way too much – Barbarians, Rangers and Paladins would be inferior to a straight fighter.
The other abilities don’t even come close to making up for it.
 



Ry

Explorer
If anyone has some well-vetted statblocks of 6th level characters that we could play with by adding feats to, that would also be much appreciated. Since I use methods like Able Secretary/Best Friend to ballpark things, or work straight from MM plus suites of feats, it would help me a lot if we had a few examples as "baselines"
 

Kunimatyu

First Post
rycanada said:
If anyone has some well-vetted statblocks of 6th level characters that we could play with by adding feats to, that would also be much appreciated. Since I use methods like Able Secretary/Best Friend to ballpark things, or work straight from MM plus suites of feats, it would help me a lot if we had a few examples as "baselines"

I'll see if I can stat up a few -- if I do, they'll be Level 6 folks with 5-10 extra feats tacked on.
 


As strictly a player, I would love to be in a campaign using this system.

Reminds me of playing Champions. You create your character as a certain level (usually decided by damage and defenses) and from then on your character develops new abilities.
 

Ry

Explorer
Welcome to EN World JanusDreamweaver!

Also, thanks! There have been those (at sites like therpgsite and giantitp.com) who have claimed no player would ever want to touch this system. While I have proof otherwise (my original E6 game, and the new E6 game I've recently recruited for) I appreciate knowing that it's not all DMs and designers who can see the appeal.
 

Ry

Explorer
OK, this thread is getting unmanageably large (at least for me) - I know there's stuff I missed so I'm going to create a new thread, link the .pdfs in the first post, and ask this one to be closed.
 


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