E6: The Game Inside D&D

[VanceMadrox]

I understand that abilities above level 8 can be given out using the leaning up approach.

My dilemma is that there are some 9th and 10th level abilities I'd like available. Rather than lean up that far I think E8 might be a better choice for me.

I also don't really see that it'd be much more work as a DM. 1st level Warrior Orcs might no threaten but statting up a 3rd level warrior orc once or twice barely takes any time.

The Gestalt vs Capstone idea is interesting. I think I've seen your list but it was for 3.5 so wouldn't be entirely accurate for Pathfinder. I also don't like the idea of every character of a class eventually getting the same 3 capstone abilities personally.



As for Magic Items I understand you can take the relics from a bygone era or forged by starnge and powerful entities approach. If I did go with E6 I would definitely use this approach. I like the idea of having mortals who can forge some of the items I mentioned. Granted there may only ever be one mortal who has the ability to do it but that's fine by me. With E8 leaning up to 10 I also don't have to worry about Incantations. Just about every spell I would in the game want is 5th or lower. I kind of like the idea of a world where high powered Magic simply isn't possible, even through ritual. I can see the appeal of using it for an E6 game though.

 

[Werebat]

IMO the capstone abilities need a little more variety to help them compete with gestalt appeal. So far I have been very open to players wishing to take some other ability not mentioned as a capstone ability, so effectively there ARE more than three choices IMC, those are just the standard ones.

I plan to switch over to PF myself, and will likely have to edit my system when I do.

 

[NichG]

Even in an E6 universe, it's possible for mortal mages to get fairly high caster levels if they use the right feats and things like magical locations. You can get +2 or +3 caster level via Elder Giant magic, +1 to spells of certain subtypes with domains or reserve feats, etc. At that point, you can start making Ioun stones... This makes things > caster level 6 logically exceedingly rare, but not impossible for specialized wizards or clerics to produce. When I ran an E6 game, one of the PCs went this route and was able to get his caster level for item creation obscenely high by the end of the campaign by bootstrapping his way up - it was somewhere around 18 when he was in the right circumstances: on a ship, with a full moon out, in his sanctum, etc, etc. That's as a wizard; it would've been much easier if he had been a cleric - there are feats that let you exchange turn attempts for up to +3 caster level, the bead of Karma is +4, the Ankh of Ascension is +4...

Another way you could do it that requires less character optimization would be to grant a bonus to caster level for using a magical location in order to require questing to make things > caster level 6. Go to the heart of a volcano to forge a flaming sword, go to the corpse of a god on the Astral to make a bag of holding...

Maybe certain materials are available that bridge the gap for specific items you want to be common but are otherwise too high caster level. Phase spider silk is, if not trivial to get, available in quantity in principle, and is listed as being a major component for portable holes.

So there are a couple ways around the item issue.

 

[VanceMadrox]

True but once again, I'm using Pathfinder not 3.5 Splat books.

 

[Mark Chance]

And as I pointed out, even if you DON'T, you'll still have a problem with overgearing. The wizard or party UMD-er can always buy more wands, etc.

Not if those things aren't for sale.

 

[Oozemaster]

I only recently discovered E6, and I am considering running a game with it in the near future. I have come up with my own variation on it, and I wanted to run it by you guys and see what you think. It's a kind of escalating gestalt system where characters continue to gain levels in addition to feats.

It would go like this:

Characters level up normally for the first 6 levels, following the rules of D&D 3.5 and regular E6. At level 6, they will have completed their first round of development. As a reward, they get to raise one ability score by one point, just as they did at level 4.

After characters earn 5000 more XP, they get a feat, as per the regular E6 rules.

After they earn another 5000 XP, things get more interesting. They choose another class level to take and become Gestalt characters, with their 6 previous levels on one side and their new level on the other. Characters can take levels in any classes they qualify for, even if they did not meet the qualifications when they were originally level 1, but they can never take more than 6 levels in a single class. Shared class features are the greater of that granted by the new level or the combined total of the first 6 levels.

For example, a Wizard 5/Divine Oracle 1 decided to begin his new gestalt with a level of Rogue. The character's hit points do not change, because 5d4 + 1d6 is greater than 1d6. However, the second hit point total should still be recorded and kept in case it eventually rises above the first.

Continuing with the example, a first level Rogue has a 0 for base attack bonus, so that doesn't change. The Rogue has 0/2/0 for Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves. The Wizard 5/Divine Oracle 1 has 1/1/6. 2 is more than 1, so the Rogue's reflex save is used.

The Wizard 5/Divine Oracle 1 has 18 skill points. The Rogue 1 has 24 skill points. So the character immediately gains 6 skill points to be spent using the Rogue's skill list.

None of the Rogue's class features overlap, so they are all added in and the character is ready to go.

5000 XP later, the character gains another feat. 5000 XP after that, the character gains another level. It is added following the same rules as above, except that now the combined totals of the first six levels are being balanced against the combined totals of the second two levels.

Advancement continues in that manner, alternating feats and levels every 5000 XP.

After the character has earned 80,000 XP, or shortly after level 13 following regular 3.5 rules, the character will have reached 6th level for the second time, and is now a 6//6 gestalt with 6 extra feats. Once again, as a reward, one ability score can be raised by one point.

Upon gaining 5000 more XP, the character gains a feat. 5000 XP after that, the character gains another level and begins a third side to the gestalt, following the same rules as above.

After earning a total of 145,000 XP, or about halfway between levels 17 and 18 under regular rules, the character will have reached level 6 for the third time and may once again raise an ability score by one point.

5000 XP later they get a feat. 5000 XP after that they can begin on the fourth side of their gestalt. Repeat ad infinitum.

And that's basically it. I like it. I think it will add more variety and a little more power while preserving the things that attracted me to E6 in the first place. I also like that it allows players to actually take levels of prestige classes rather than just mimicking them with feats. I think even allowing six levels of prestige classes should work, as most of the ones that would cause problems are still impossible to join in the first place.

So, what do you guys think? Do you see any glaring flaws?

 

[slwoyach]

I allow characters to choose between a gestalt level and a bonus feat, though no character may ever have more than one class above level 4. This includes prestige classes. If a character reaches 6th level and desides to prestige he can only attain 4th level in that prestige class. If he manages to qualify for a PrC at level 4 he can switch and advance to the 6th level of that class.

Characters may also prestige prior to reaching level 6 by spending feats, even as early as 1st level. The cost to gain access to a new class is one feat, after that each class level also costs one feat. So 2 feats grants the first class level, allowing a human to begin his career as a level 1/1 gestalt.

I know gestalting is more powerful than any single feat, but I'm ok with that. Oddly I've only had one player ever gestalt and he's not even currently in my game. For my next campaign I'm thinking of giving ever class prerequisites, making every single class after the first in effect a prestige class (and more difficult to gestalt into).

 

[Gilladian]

It seems to me that these optional gestalt rules do exactly what I am getting away from with regular 3.5.

1) they make running regular, common, easy to find lower level modules hard work again, because you've got to go in and tinker with every single npc or monster to match the PCs.

2) the characters might as well just keep going up levels if they keep getting more and more powerful with all these abilities. The "power curve" hasn't been interrupted.

I'll be starting an E6 campaign in the not-too-distant future (after I finish running what is scheduled to become a very wahoo campaign over the next six months). I'm looking forward to it being simple, sandboxy (because I'm placing many small modules into a region) and much less burden on me.

 

[slwoyach]

2) the characters might as well just keep going up levels if they keep getting more and more powerful with all these abilities. The "power curve" hasn't been interrupted.

It doesn't make them nearly as powerful as going up in levels would. There's no 4th level spells, there's no jumping like the Hulk, there's no +20 BAB, etc. A fighter 6/Rogue 4/Duelist 4 has a +6 BAB (same as f6), 6d10 hips (same as f6), a +5 Fort (same as a f6), a +4 reflex (same as a f6 with great fortitude), and 10 fewer feats in exchange for some bonus skill points and nifty class abilities (some of which require the some severe limitations).

Those 10 feats are the equivalent of 50,000 experience points, which would put a non-E6 fighter at only 1,000 short of level 12. A 12th level fighter would absolutely destroy the above fighter.

 

[locworks]

I only recently discovered E6, and I am considering running a game with it in the near future. I have come up with my own variation on it, and I wanted to run it by you guys and see what you think. It's a kind of escalating gestalt system where characters continue to gain levels in addition to feats.<snip>

So, what do you guys think? Do you see any glaring flaws?

One minor flaw: Quadruple skill points are gained only at first character level.

I think I see what you are trying to achieve (more flavour). I'm wondering if it wouldn't be more straightforward to convert the desired class features to feats and/or to grant feats more frequently after the character reaches level 6? This would preserve the E6 power level and keep character advancement as is.