E6: The Game Inside D&D

[Hip Uncle Z]

Been running a steampunk world for about 3 years now. Switched to PFRPG 2 years ago; and after reading the e6 document; really want to give this a shot.

I have a few questions.

1.) I didn't see HP mentioned once, so I assume that it stops increasing as well.

-How does playing without increasing Hitpoints *feel* to you players?

-What about you DMs?

2.) Is it a much higher casualty rate when you hit CR10 encounters?

3.) Can anyone recommend some expanded spell selections to use specifically with e6? I already have everything from Rite Publishing and Necromancers of The Northwest.

 

[kevin_video]

It's not like you don't ever get more hit points. You just get more feats that you can use to increase your Con modifier and Toughness. That's definitely going to help. But no, no more HD.

If you're facing a CR 10 encounter then you've got "epic" characters with like 15 extra feats before they're going in so they're the equivalent to an 8th or 9th level party. Yeah the damage is higher, but the survivability is still there. Like they said in the write up, this makes dragons fearsome again. Makes the PCs think outside the box.

You could always give mages capstone feats that allow them to learn a 4th level spell. I know a DM that did that for his E6 group. It was basically the same as the epic feat Improved Spell Capacity.

 

[Antariuk]

1.) I didn't see HP mentioned once, so I assume that it stops increasing as well.

-How does playing without increasing Hitpoints *feel* to you players?

-What about you DMs?

Like kevin_video said, there is always the Toughnes feat, giving any 6th level character 6 hp. If you still have a bad feeling about this, E8 might be an alternative for your game.

As for the feeling, I can only speak from a GM's perspective. First, its a weird thing, and you need to get used to the fact that a large portion of the Bestiaiy can kill your players easily. But after it sinks in, you realize how much this can improve the game. After one or two tough fights, your players will realize that they can't affort to charge into any dungeon they find like brainless maniacs. They need a solid strategy, they need preparation, and above all, caution. They will start to take the world around them more serious. If your players are anything like mine, they might also surprise your with a display of cunning and cruelty you never saw before. Survival can be a strong motivator

This doesn't mean that I am f***ing around with my players or constantly putting them in danger of being killed. I run a fair game, where there are always several ways to approach a problem. I just made it clear that I won't cheat, and that there might be villains they cannot beat without preparing accordingly for the job.

2.) Is it a much higher casualty rate when you hit CR10 encounters?

I'd say that really depends on your player's knowledge of the rules, and how their characters are built. If they are accustomed to "normal" Pathfinder games, it may cost them a character or two before they attune to E6's reality. Do the character complement each other during combat? Are all players aware of the fact that the game works outside the standard mechanics for level-appropriate encounters, and therefore running also is an option to end a fight?

3.) Can anyone recommend some expanded spell selections to use specifically with e6? I already have everything from Rite Publishing and Necromancers of The Northwest.

I'm familiar with one or two Rite Publishing materials, their 101 spells series might be all you ever need. Personally, I am using an assortment of extra spells from the D&D 3.5 Complete series, Eberron supplements (we are playing an Eberron game), and some spells from various d20 supplements I found interesting. However, be careful with the amount of extra spells in the game, as you might end up creating some of the very problems E6 tried to avoid in the first place.

 

[Hip Uncle Z]

However, be careful with the amount of extra spells in the game, as you might end up creating some of the very problems E6 tried to avoid in the first place.

Yes! I thought about this while reading the PDF last night then said "Hell, the 101 spells are enough".

I will throw some technology school spells in, as this is a Steampunk game. But my gamers all seem excited to enter a tough as nails game; that feels more real and severe than what they're used to. My gamers have told me they come for the story, but maybe now they'll appreciate the combat better!

 

[kevin_video]

If you're doing technology based stuff, look at the Iron Kingdoms books for spells too. Maybe even a few monsters from their Monsternomicons.

 

[Antariuk]

My gamers have told me they come for the story, but maybe now they'll appreciate the combat better!

The way I see it, this is a huge accomplishment! D&D or Pathfinder are not the best storytelling systems to begin with, so if your players already see the story as a primary incentive, you're doing just fine

 

[LordUrban]

I was wondering if anyone had worked on including prestige classes in E6? For the most part I've found that you need to hit 7 before you can think about taking one. Are there any feats that would allow for the reproduction of prestige classes?

 

[Gilladian]

I've been running an E6 game now for just about a year and a half... and my PCs are just now about to become 5th and 6th level (2 at 5th and 2 at 6th). So we're just really "seeing" the differences that E6 will make in the overall campaign.

I have noticed that as I run the dungeon (Dragon's Delve over at dungeonaday.com) I am beginning to see a real difference in the way things are working. I'm having to modify the foes they meet into E6 versions; the NPCs are all 6-8th level now (the evil Venom Cult of clerics and assassins in the lvl 6 area of the dungeon) and would be starting to use Lvl 4 spells against them.

Instead, I'm giving them more feats, and adding a few extra lower-level "cannon-fodder" foes to give the "bigger" foes a cushion, so they're not mobbed at once.

Already, the rule change has affected the way I run my campaign world, and the concepts that effect the psyche of the NPCs. There's no raise dead unless a whole group of priests is all willing to work together to do it, so only royalty or high ranking clergy are ever LIKELY to be raised.

I HAVE been allowing spells from many sources - all the player's options books, Spell Compendium, etc... but do not have the Rite Publishing resources. Hmmm...

I think reworking prestige classes into base classes is the way I'm going. I was never one for LOTS of multiclassing, nor are my players, but sometimes they look! Again, I allow PH II classes and a few others, but they haven't tried them.

Or rework prestige classes into a SINGLE level that can be taken as the 6th level selection, optionally. A "capstone" level, as it were. Give each class say 3 options, and you can introduce a lot of variety.

 

[S'mon]

I've decided with my Pathfinder Beginner Box Yggsburgh campaign to make it E10 rather than E5. E10 I think fits closest to the level demographics of old-school rulesets such as 1e AD&D or B/X D&D, and allows for all the iconic D&D spells (I guess you could argue 6th level Disintegrate or Death Spell were somewhat iconic, but not like Teleport or Raise Dead). Yggsburgh is a Gygaxian setting so Wizards should be powerful; this makes it less suitable for E5 or E6 play. But I definitely don't want to be dealing with the horrors of double-digit 3e play, and I doubt PF really fixed it, so E10 seems like the best approach.

 

[S'mon]

[MENTION=2093]Gilladian[/MENTION] - I've already been running my Pathfinder BB Yggsburgh game since February. Currently with attrition the three regular PCs are 4th, 2nd & 2nd, the 4th level guy is getting close to the BB's 5th level cap, hence my deciding whether to stick with my initial E5 idea or go to E10. There will be one more game then a planned hiatus to January. When it resumes it will be at most fortnightly, with 3 hour sessions. A year from now I expect it's possible, but definitely not certain, that one or more PCs might have reached the E10 cap, in which case I will be able to report back on how E10 works in play. If the campaign goes long term then I expect in a couple years I will definitely have seen some E10 play, and I'll be sure to report in here around August 2014 . My expectation is that it should run a lot like the traditional OD&D 'Endgame', with dominion rulership & politics as increasingly large features.