Originally posted by jgumbyrx:
Hi!
I'm trying to put together ideas for a potential E6 campaign that will be using Generic Classes from UA. What I like about that combo is that there will be less stagnation after the characters hit level 6, as I plan on having this go to about ~100,000 XP (give or take 20k), starting at level 1.
I realize that there will need to be a couple of changes/adjustments, but these are very simple:
- Spellcasters will have their spell selection limited -- Arcane Spellcasters can only pick spells that appear on arcane casters' lists ; Divine Spellcasters can only pick spells that appear on divine casters' lists.
- add more class features to the list of available "bonus feats"
New Generic Class Bonus Feats:
Show
[sblock]
Turn/Rebuke Undead
Prereq: Knowledge (Religion) 4 ranks
Benefit: you are able to turn or rebuke undead, as per the cleric ability, 1+cha mod times per day. Characters of good alignment can only Turn ; characters of evil alignment can only Rebuke ; neutral characters must choose whether they turn or rebuke at the time they take this feat, and this decision cannot be changed once it is made.
Wild Shape
Prereq: Wild empathy ; Handle Animal 4 ranks ; Knowledge (nature) 8 ranks
Benefit: you are now able to use wild shape, as per the druid ability.
Special: prereqs of the E6 feat "mighty wild shape" are now: wild shape, knowledge (nature) 11 ranks
Rage
Prereq: BAB +1 ; STR 13+ ; Power Attack ; proficiency in all simple and martial weapons, and all light and medium armors
Benefit: you can Rage once per day, as per the barbarian ability.
Fast movement
Prereq: Dex 13+ ; Dash
Benefit: add +10ft to your base movement speed. This overlaps (does not stack) with Dash.
Bardic Music
Prereq: Perform 3 ranks
Benefit: when you take this feat, you gain 1 daily use of bardic music. You also gain the fascinate and countersong bardic music abilities.
Inspire Courage
Prereq: Perform 3 ranks ; Bardic Music
Benefit: you now add inspire courage to your list of Bardic Music abilities.
Special: prereqs of the E6 feat "Bardic Inspiration" are now: Bardic Music ; Inspire Courage ; Perform 11 ranks.
Inspire Competence
Prereq: Bardic Music ; Perform 6 ranks
Benefit: add inspire competence to your list of Bardic Music abilities.
Suggestion
Prereqs: Bardic Music ; Perform 9 ranks
Benefit: add the suggestion bard ability to your list of Bardic Music abilities.
Lay on Hands
Prereqs: CHA 12+ ; Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks ; Heal 2 ranks ; good alignment
Benefit: you gain the "lay on hands" ability (as per paladin) = character level x CHA mod.
Domain Access
Prereq: knowledge (religion) 4 ranks ; divine spellcaster
Benefit: chose a cleric domain ; you now have access to that domain's power as a cleric = your divine spellcaster level. additionally, that domain's spells are now added to your available spell list (but are not automatically added to your spells known).
restricted domain access (e.g., alignment, etc.) still applies.
You may only take this feat twice; each time choosing a different domain.
[/sblock]
Also, "wild cohort" would have as a prereq: Handle Animal 4 ranks. Throw in "natural bond", and you now have a full AC.
I'll eventually add a bunch more feats for this ; feel free to add your own.
So anyways, I wanted to get your guys' thoughts.
Thanks.
Originally posted by Airos:
Sounds like a great idea. I've had my eye on e6 for a few months now, and have been debating if/how I would want to run it. I'll be interested to see what you come up with.
I've got a few questions, and I'll be working from the Myth Weaver's wiki, (since that was the top google search for "Epic 6 D&D", and I'm assuming that's the main source).
- What is your planned approach for feats? Cautious, Gestalt or Lean Upward?
- Will you be including non-core material? Additional feats, spells and class features?
- Will you be including Prestige Classes? If not, their class features as feats?
- What's your planned approach to 'broken' combos? (Wild Shape/Natural Spell springs to mind).
A few ideas I'd toss out regard generally 'weak' feats. I'm my standard games, I've house-ruled Toughness to grant +1 hp/level, (and have considered taking it up to +2), and Open Minded +1 skill point a level. In this instance there's little difference between my house-ruled Open Minded and the standard feat, but I think a small change like this with Toughness could take a weak feat that's tossed aside and turn it into a 'good' feat. +6 (or +12) hit points is a big deal since it'll give 2-3 virtual hit dice, but without any complications about how many hit dice you've actually got regarding spell effects and so forth.
The alternative would be to grant actual hit dice if you wanted your PCs to be immune to spells that effect a 6-hd creature, (such as Scare or Daze Monster).
What are your thoughts on fighter specific feats, especially Weapon Specialization, (and the greater version if you allow feat chains to extend beyond 6th level requirements)? I'd see that as a really good feat for any class that intends to wield a weapon in an e6 game since +2 (or +4) damage could be a lot more important when you only get 1 attack, (except for the very lucky Warrior who'll actually get a second attack at 6th level).
I'd defiantly want to open this up to a [General] feat, (especially since I'd expect to see some funky builds, like an expert that can turn undead, or a raging/wildshaping warrior).
Two-Weapon Fighting, (and the Improved version), could be a very interesting character option. It actually becomes quite powerful, since while most people will get 1 attack you'll be getting 2-4, (again for the very lucky warrior with his +6 base attack). Throw in any of the Sneak Attack feats that the generic classes offer, and you're going to be seeing a lot of damage compared to the rest of the PCs abilities.
So, yeah. There's my initial thoughts. I'd be more than happy to throw around some other ideas regarding feats and class features if that's the sort of help you're looking for, or some campaign ideas if/when you're in the market for those as well.
Originally posted by jgumbyrx:
Well, I don't see this starting for about another year; but I've got lots of planning to do (as I'm in the middle of another campaign at the moment; and this will be only 1 of 3 choices of campaigns -- I'll be letting the players choose, and I want to be fully prepared for whatever they choose) -- I generally start each new campaign from the bottom-up, which generally starts with a new setting, etc. I will, however, be updating this as I come up with more stuff.
It's not the first/only source; but it appears to be the most up-to-date.
Mostly "gestalt", with a little dash of "lean upward".
Here is why I feel that "generic classes" are AWESOME for E6 -- with each new feat, you can continue to customize your character with new abilities, instead of just finding more uses for existing ones. On that note, however, I must say that you definitely should NOT mix generic classes with standard ones; and I highly recommend making the stated restrictions to spell selection.
As far as "lean upward" goes, I don't think that I will be going much further than what's already been shown via the "capstone feats". Anything new like that that I come up with probably won't allow anything beyond what an 8th-lvl character would have.
I like the idea of feats that give "virtual levels" for qualifying for higher stuff (like "skilled beyond your years", "mighty wild shape", "veteran warrior", etc.); but feel that actually adding HD and related stuff just goes against the goal of the system.
My goal will be to make this as flexible and encompassing as possible -- I'm currently in the process of going through all of the different books and classes and making feats that can accommodate just about any character concept (level- and power- appropriate, of course). Even though I will be coming up with my own new "class features as feats" feats, there will always be something that I miss. As such, if someone says "what about 'xxx'?", then as long as it is within the appropriate power level, I'll try to find a way to incorporate it.
As for regular feats -- I use as many resources as possible (to include 3rd party). As always, I'm very judicious about 3rd-party.
As for spells:
- there is already a feat that lets you add more spells to your list of spells known
- I can see having feats that let you cast a spell higher than 3rd level as a ritual (in a fashion that resembles the couple that are already in the system). These will most likely involve needing 9-11 ranks in spellcraft from a 6th-level caster.
- I am also planning on making rituals, "circle magic", "cooperative spellcasting", etc., a prominent feature in my setting. I'm still researching how I will want that to work.
There are already plenty of PrCs that characters will be able to take the 1st level of. As long as they can qualify, then I'll probably address related feats on an individual basis. Even still, there will still be some things that are right out (sorry, no deathless frenzy).
Given the nature of the system, these will largely be self-correcting and self-limiting. To use your example: there are still size/HD limitations, still only using 3rd level spells, etc. -- I'm cool with that.
Basically, I'll be using the same approach as I use in all my games -- if it becomes a systematic problem, then I work with the player to change it (all my players know and whole-heartedly agree that I always reserve this right).
In my own games, I have combined toughness and improved toughness in to a single feat; but if you take it more than once you only get a static +3 bonus (by combining the 2, then you are essentially getting standard toughness for free every 3 levels anyway -- seems good enough to me).
There is a background feat in AEG's Feats called "university" that gives you 2 bonus skill points per level -- all my skill monkeys love it. As for "open minded", I think it's good enough as written (but that's just me).
I feel doing this actually defeats one of the main purposes of the system -- you want the characters to stay vulnerable to stuff.
Since I'm using the generic classes exclusively, I'm actually gonna have the Warrior count as Fighter for "fighter-only" feats (however, see "veteran warrior" for limits).
that's what I'm going for (hopefully). I wouldn't mind seeing just how far this thing can stretch.
Naturally
that's pretty-much what I'm looking for.
Basically, when I put stuff like this up (new rules, game ideas, etc.), I'm generally looking for 2 things:
1) insight as to things that might prove to make it a bad idea (thus needing a fix, or maybe a redesign)
2) cool ideas that will add to the concept
And I'm always up for just general discussion.
Thanks for the hit. Let me know what you think of my analysis.
Originally posted by Airos:
Cool. I'll keep my eyes on this thread with interest.
Okay, that gives me a good idea of the power level you're looking for.
I was trying to figure out what the Myth-Weavers wiki was talking about when they said "ritual magic in UA", and I'm assuming that they're talking about Incantations. It seems like a great idea for allowing powerful plot-driven effects, while keeping high level spells out of the hands of the players.
I don't know if I'm keen, (or even Impacting...
), about the idea of non-casters having access to spells, but then again spells are the big thing that make non-casters 'weak'.
I like the way the prestige feats are handled, and worry that it may get a little confusing attempting to mix generic classes, PrCs and 'PrFeats'.
I'd suggest taking a look at what you'd want to see your players gain from specializing, especially since it runs contrary to the concept of generic classes, and find the method that best suits that.
If you want the PCs to eventually gain the abilities of the PrC, make it all feats. If you just want them to get a small taste, go with the class. I wouldn't mix them too much, though.
That's a good approach.
Yeah, I threw it out there since a feat for 5 skill points isn't all that great when you only get 7 feats over 20 levels. Having the combination of Open Minded and University is an interesting idea, since you'll get a huge boost to skill points 1st-6th level then a slower bump for each additional feat you're willing to 'sacrifice', (and still gives them a way of getting up to 11 ranks in skills post 6th level when they get 'Skill beyond your years').
Your version of Toughness is pretty good for e6, since even just 3 hp when you've only got 6 hd is a measurable difference. Again, 7 feats over 20 levels and a flat +3 just isn't that appealing.
I agree, but I threw that out there since it was an idea on the wiki. Again, this helps me to gauge what your target power level is.
Well, my thought was that there isn't much call to make the fighter-only feats exclusive. Since you're looking for a very open, mix-and-match, almost classless system, why keep anything 'specific', (excluding feats that require spellcasting, obviously)?
Hell, I want to start building characters.
And for once the melee guys can keep up with the casters.
I think that the Metamagic Components rules could add a fun layer to this concept, since it lets the players have an occasion to cast a more powerful 3rd level spell, but limit how often they can do it.
I'd keep an eye on Use Magic Device. By 6th level, you can have +14 just with ranks, skill focus and magical aptitude. Add in their cha modifier, and it becomes very easy for any character to keep a stash of general purpose wands handy. It's even easier for Cha based arcane casters to cherry-pick the best divine spells to use and abuse. I'd closely monitor what wands they can purchase in their downtime.
I'll be sure to pop in with more ideas and thoughts as they come to me.
Originally posted by thorr_kan:
Incantations are GREAT for plot-driven spells and giving that "ritual magic" feel that D&D so often lacks. The high materials and time (and sometimes XP!) requirements keep them balanced.
Unearthed Arcana is a good source for starting. D20 Modern's Urban Arcana and the d20 Modern SRD have a bunch more.
For a third-party source, see www.koboldquarterly.com's(x) store. There's a PDF there that has three sets of Incantations: Old World Fairy Tales (Russian Flavored), Lovecraftian, and Vodoo.
Originally posted by jgumbyrx:
me likes -- thanks a bunch!
_______________________________
I'm trying to work out how to implement domains. Here's what I've got so far (PEACH):
Domain Access
prereq: knowledge (religion) 4 ranks ; divine spellcaster
benefit: chose a cleric domain ; you now have access to that domain's power as a cleric = your divine spellcaster level. additionally, that domain's spells are now added to your available spell list (but are not automatically added to your spells known).
restricted domain access (e.g., alignment, etc.) still applies.
You may only take this feat twice; each time choosing a different domain.
For this to make more sense, I first need to give a quick explanation of how I plan on handling religion/pantheons for this game (though, it is still in the very early developmental stages, so bear with me):
I'm going with an ambiguous approach to religion, with a kinda "intelligent design" + "the gods are everywhere" concept, where a person can find spiritual inspiration in just about anything. the deities are largely absentee -- the basic creation myth will be essentially consistent, with differences reflecting the different races. I plan on developing a history littered with hero-prophets, harbinger-villains, and divine oracles that have inspired and otherwise contributed to the current culture and society.
So, whatcha think?
Originally posted by jgumbyrx:
I'm kinda stuck on economy in an E6 world.
As I see it, the size and scale of economies in this system would be greatly reduced. As such, stuff like GP-limit for towns/cities/etc. would necessarily need to be adjusted.
Thoughts? I've read the Economicon (here and here), but I'm still unsure what things should look like in an E6 world.
Originally posted by Airos:
Well, I'm of two minds about this.
It doesn't grant any ability to actually cast those domain spells. Given that there are no 0-level domain spells, this is providing access to 3 spells, (assuming that they're not already on the cleric list). Add in the fact that 'normal' clerics would get these spells in addition to their normal spells per day. It seems a little harsh to make them take at least 3 feats to gain the spells themselves, (this and Expanded Spell Knowledge twice; once for the 1st and 2nd level spells; again for the 3rd level spell, assuming that they wait until 6th class level to gain the first two spells).
Then again, most domain spells are on the cleric list already; It may be worth 2 feats to gain a few Sor/Wiz spells without any restrictions on when you can cast it, (since without domain spell slots it could be cast up to their daily spell limit). This may lead to the divine caster be the true 'win' in this game since the cleric/druid use the same list. You'll have your pick of healing/buff/divination/utility spells, with a good selection of direct damage from the druid list and a sprinkle of arcane only spells. Throw in Wild Shape, and this can make for a very powerful CoDzilla, (although it would need to be termed the "C&Dzilla").
So, one part of me wants to make it better and another part of me wants to burn it with fire. I don't know if that means 'balanced' to me, but it may to you.
My thought is to leave it alone. Seriously, just because the PCs won't have greater than the wealth of 7th-8th level characters doesn't mean that objects costing more than that much gold cease to be traded in the economy. I could easily see the services of a 6th level wizard costing more than the market value of a 6th level item, since they can make 6th level items. If people can command that high a wage, then there needs to be an economy that can support that high of a wage.
Magic Item Compendium tells us that no 8th level item should have a market price greater than 4,000 gold, (or more accurately that no item worth more than 4,000 gold should be in the hands of 8th level characters without reason). It requires a small city to find that item for 'sale' under the existing rules.
Just by limiting the PCs access to cities you limit their buying power, but only for the premium end. They can still access general utility items, such as scrolls, wands and potions, but can only 'buy' high ticket items when their adventures permit. Even if they do wind up in an area where the economy can support the sale and trade of 45,000gp items it doesn't mean a thing when the most powerful items in the world are only 6th level items. They'll still only have the money for such purchases when they're the appropriate level.
No matter how bad the economic system is in D&D, it's so tightly tied to the entire balance of the system it's dangerous to start messing with it. Item values are balanced against item power, which is balanced against character level, which is balanced against wealth per level, which is balanced against treasure per encounter, which is balanced against town gp limits, which is balanced against item values, (whew!).
To me, the economy in a D&D game is just a set piece. It has no more impact on the game or the setting than what type of tree is indigenous to the region, or the color of the sky in mid-autumn. D&D isn't generally concerned with the balance of the world so much as the balance of the party.
But you know what? I'm not a economy geek. D&D is a very nerdy game, and some very nerdy people play it. Everyone wants to put in to their D&D game the nerdy things they love, be it economics, astronomy, genetics, complex weather patterns, historical accuracy, comic book heroes, etc... It doesn't mean that it's a bad idea to start messing with things to make it a more fun game for your group.
If D&D economic systems bug the crap out of you, toss 'em away! If you just think that because everybody is lower level it means that everyone is poorer, then I wouldn't start messing with it.
Hi!
I'm trying to put together ideas for a potential E6 campaign that will be using Generic Classes from UA. What I like about that combo is that there will be less stagnation after the characters hit level 6, as I plan on having this go to about ~100,000 XP (give or take 20k), starting at level 1.
I realize that there will need to be a couple of changes/adjustments, but these are very simple:
- Spellcasters will have their spell selection limited -- Arcane Spellcasters can only pick spells that appear on arcane casters' lists ; Divine Spellcasters can only pick spells that appear on divine casters' lists.
- add more class features to the list of available "bonus feats"
New Generic Class Bonus Feats:
Show
[sblock]
Turn/Rebuke Undead
Prereq: Knowledge (Religion) 4 ranks
Benefit: you are able to turn or rebuke undead, as per the cleric ability, 1+cha mod times per day. Characters of good alignment can only Turn ; characters of evil alignment can only Rebuke ; neutral characters must choose whether they turn or rebuke at the time they take this feat, and this decision cannot be changed once it is made.
Wild Shape
Prereq: Wild empathy ; Handle Animal 4 ranks ; Knowledge (nature) 8 ranks
Benefit: you are now able to use wild shape, as per the druid ability.
Special: prereqs of the E6 feat "mighty wild shape" are now: wild shape, knowledge (nature) 11 ranks
Rage
Prereq: BAB +1 ; STR 13+ ; Power Attack ; proficiency in all simple and martial weapons, and all light and medium armors
Benefit: you can Rage once per day, as per the barbarian ability.
Fast movement
Prereq: Dex 13+ ; Dash
Benefit: add +10ft to your base movement speed. This overlaps (does not stack) with Dash.
Bardic Music
Prereq: Perform 3 ranks
Benefit: when you take this feat, you gain 1 daily use of bardic music. You also gain the fascinate and countersong bardic music abilities.
Inspire Courage
Prereq: Perform 3 ranks ; Bardic Music
Benefit: you now add inspire courage to your list of Bardic Music abilities.
Special: prereqs of the E6 feat "Bardic Inspiration" are now: Bardic Music ; Inspire Courage ; Perform 11 ranks.
Inspire Competence
Prereq: Bardic Music ; Perform 6 ranks
Benefit: add inspire competence to your list of Bardic Music abilities.
Suggestion
Prereqs: Bardic Music ; Perform 9 ranks
Benefit: add the suggestion bard ability to your list of Bardic Music abilities.
Lay on Hands
Prereqs: CHA 12+ ; Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks ; Heal 2 ranks ; good alignment
Benefit: you gain the "lay on hands" ability (as per paladin) = character level x CHA mod.
Domain Access
Prereq: knowledge (religion) 4 ranks ; divine spellcaster
Benefit: chose a cleric domain ; you now have access to that domain's power as a cleric = your divine spellcaster level. additionally, that domain's spells are now added to your available spell list (but are not automatically added to your spells known).
restricted domain access (e.g., alignment, etc.) still applies.
You may only take this feat twice; each time choosing a different domain.
[/sblock]
Also, "wild cohort" would have as a prereq: Handle Animal 4 ranks. Throw in "natural bond", and you now have a full AC.
I'll eventually add a bunch more feats for this ; feel free to add your own.
So anyways, I wanted to get your guys' thoughts.
Thanks.
Originally posted by Airos:
Sounds like a great idea. I've had my eye on e6 for a few months now, and have been debating if/how I would want to run it. I'll be interested to see what you come up with.
I've got a few questions, and I'll be working from the Myth Weaver's wiki, (since that was the top google search for "Epic 6 D&D", and I'm assuming that's the main source).
- What is your planned approach for feats? Cautious, Gestalt or Lean Upward?
- Will you be including non-core material? Additional feats, spells and class features?
- Will you be including Prestige Classes? If not, their class features as feats?
- What's your planned approach to 'broken' combos? (Wild Shape/Natural Spell springs to mind).
A few ideas I'd toss out regard generally 'weak' feats. I'm my standard games, I've house-ruled Toughness to grant +1 hp/level, (and have considered taking it up to +2), and Open Minded +1 skill point a level. In this instance there's little difference between my house-ruled Open Minded and the standard feat, but I think a small change like this with Toughness could take a weak feat that's tossed aside and turn it into a 'good' feat. +6 (or +12) hit points is a big deal since it'll give 2-3 virtual hit dice, but without any complications about how many hit dice you've actually got regarding spell effects and so forth.
The alternative would be to grant actual hit dice if you wanted your PCs to be immune to spells that effect a 6-hd creature, (such as Scare or Daze Monster).
What are your thoughts on fighter specific feats, especially Weapon Specialization, (and the greater version if you allow feat chains to extend beyond 6th level requirements)? I'd see that as a really good feat for any class that intends to wield a weapon in an e6 game since +2 (or +4) damage could be a lot more important when you only get 1 attack, (except for the very lucky Warrior who'll actually get a second attack at 6th level).
I'd defiantly want to open this up to a [General] feat, (especially since I'd expect to see some funky builds, like an expert that can turn undead, or a raging/wildshaping warrior).
Two-Weapon Fighting, (and the Improved version), could be a very interesting character option. It actually becomes quite powerful, since while most people will get 1 attack you'll be getting 2-4, (again for the very lucky warrior with his +6 base attack). Throw in any of the Sneak Attack feats that the generic classes offer, and you're going to be seeing a lot of damage compared to the rest of the PCs abilities.
So, yeah. There's my initial thoughts. I'd be more than happy to throw around some other ideas regarding feats and class features if that's the sort of help you're looking for, or some campaign ideas if/when you're in the market for those as well.
Originally posted by jgumbyrx:
Well, I don't see this starting for about another year; but I've got lots of planning to do (as I'm in the middle of another campaign at the moment; and this will be only 1 of 3 choices of campaigns -- I'll be letting the players choose, and I want to be fully prepared for whatever they choose) -- I generally start each new campaign from the bottom-up, which generally starts with a new setting, etc. I will, however, be updating this as I come up with more stuff.
It's not the first/only source; but it appears to be the most up-to-date.
Mostly "gestalt", with a little dash of "lean upward".
Here is why I feel that "generic classes" are AWESOME for E6 -- with each new feat, you can continue to customize your character with new abilities, instead of just finding more uses for existing ones. On that note, however, I must say that you definitely should NOT mix generic classes with standard ones; and I highly recommend making the stated restrictions to spell selection.
As far as "lean upward" goes, I don't think that I will be going much further than what's already been shown via the "capstone feats". Anything new like that that I come up with probably won't allow anything beyond what an 8th-lvl character would have.
I like the idea of feats that give "virtual levels" for qualifying for higher stuff (like "skilled beyond your years", "mighty wild shape", "veteran warrior", etc.); but feel that actually adding HD and related stuff just goes against the goal of the system.
My goal will be to make this as flexible and encompassing as possible -- I'm currently in the process of going through all of the different books and classes and making feats that can accommodate just about any character concept (level- and power- appropriate, of course). Even though I will be coming up with my own new "class features as feats" feats, there will always be something that I miss. As such, if someone says "what about 'xxx'?", then as long as it is within the appropriate power level, I'll try to find a way to incorporate it.
As for regular feats -- I use as many resources as possible (to include 3rd party). As always, I'm very judicious about 3rd-party.
As for spells:
- there is already a feat that lets you add more spells to your list of spells known
- I can see having feats that let you cast a spell higher than 3rd level as a ritual (in a fashion that resembles the couple that are already in the system). These will most likely involve needing 9-11 ranks in spellcraft from a 6th-level caster.
- I am also planning on making rituals, "circle magic", "cooperative spellcasting", etc., a prominent feature in my setting. I'm still researching how I will want that to work.
There are already plenty of PrCs that characters will be able to take the 1st level of. As long as they can qualify, then I'll probably address related feats on an individual basis. Even still, there will still be some things that are right out (sorry, no deathless frenzy).
Given the nature of the system, these will largely be self-correcting and self-limiting. To use your example: there are still size/HD limitations, still only using 3rd level spells, etc. -- I'm cool with that.
Basically, I'll be using the same approach as I use in all my games -- if it becomes a systematic problem, then I work with the player to change it (all my players know and whole-heartedly agree that I always reserve this right).
In my own games, I have combined toughness and improved toughness in to a single feat; but if you take it more than once you only get a static +3 bonus (by combining the 2, then you are essentially getting standard toughness for free every 3 levels anyway -- seems good enough to me).
There is a background feat in AEG's Feats called "university" that gives you 2 bonus skill points per level -- all my skill monkeys love it. As for "open minded", I think it's good enough as written (but that's just me).
I feel doing this actually defeats one of the main purposes of the system -- you want the characters to stay vulnerable to stuff.
Since I'm using the generic classes exclusively, I'm actually gonna have the Warrior count as Fighter for "fighter-only" feats (however, see "veteran warrior" for limits).
Naturally
that's pretty-much what I'm looking for.
Basically, when I put stuff like this up (new rules, game ideas, etc.), I'm generally looking for 2 things:
1) insight as to things that might prove to make it a bad idea (thus needing a fix, or maybe a redesign)
2) cool ideas that will add to the concept
And I'm always up for just general discussion.
Thanks for the hit. Let me know what you think of my analysis.
Originally posted by Airos:
Cool. I'll keep my eyes on this thread with interest.
Okay, that gives me a good idea of the power level you're looking for.
I was trying to figure out what the Myth-Weavers wiki was talking about when they said "ritual magic in UA", and I'm assuming that they're talking about Incantations. It seems like a great idea for allowing powerful plot-driven effects, while keeping high level spells out of the hands of the players.
I don't know if I'm keen, (or even Impacting...
I like the way the prestige feats are handled, and worry that it may get a little confusing attempting to mix generic classes, PrCs and 'PrFeats'.
I'd suggest taking a look at what you'd want to see your players gain from specializing, especially since it runs contrary to the concept of generic classes, and find the method that best suits that.
If you want the PCs to eventually gain the abilities of the PrC, make it all feats. If you just want them to get a small taste, go with the class. I wouldn't mix them too much, though.
That's a good approach.
Yeah, I threw it out there since a feat for 5 skill points isn't all that great when you only get 7 feats over 20 levels. Having the combination of Open Minded and University is an interesting idea, since you'll get a huge boost to skill points 1st-6th level then a slower bump for each additional feat you're willing to 'sacrifice', (and still gives them a way of getting up to 11 ranks in skills post 6th level when they get 'Skill beyond your years').
Your version of Toughness is pretty good for e6, since even just 3 hp when you've only got 6 hd is a measurable difference. Again, 7 feats over 20 levels and a flat +3 just isn't that appealing.
I agree, but I threw that out there since it was an idea on the wiki. Again, this helps me to gauge what your target power level is.
Well, my thought was that there isn't much call to make the fighter-only feats exclusive. Since you're looking for a very open, mix-and-match, almost classless system, why keep anything 'specific', (excluding feats that require spellcasting, obviously)?
that's what I'm going for (hopefully). I wouldn't mind seeing just how far this thing can stretch.
Hell, I want to start building characters.
Naturally
And for once the melee guys can keep up with the casters.
I think that the Metamagic Components rules could add a fun layer to this concept, since it lets the players have an occasion to cast a more powerful 3rd level spell, but limit how often they can do it.
I'd keep an eye on Use Magic Device. By 6th level, you can have +14 just with ranks, skill focus and magical aptitude. Add in their cha modifier, and it becomes very easy for any character to keep a stash of general purpose wands handy. It's even easier for Cha based arcane casters to cherry-pick the best divine spells to use and abuse. I'd closely monitor what wands they can purchase in their downtime.
I'll be sure to pop in with more ideas and thoughts as they come to me.
Originally posted by thorr_kan:
Incantations are GREAT for plot-driven spells and giving that "ritual magic" feel that D&D so often lacks. The high materials and time (and sometimes XP!) requirements keep them balanced.
Unearthed Arcana is a good source for starting. D20 Modern's Urban Arcana and the d20 Modern SRD have a bunch more.
For a third-party source, see www.koboldquarterly.com's(x) store. There's a PDF there that has three sets of Incantations: Old World Fairy Tales (Russian Flavored), Lovecraftian, and Vodoo.
Originally posted by jgumbyrx:
me likes -- thanks a bunch!
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I'm trying to work out how to implement domains. Here's what I've got so far (PEACH):
Domain Access
prereq: knowledge (religion) 4 ranks ; divine spellcaster
benefit: chose a cleric domain ; you now have access to that domain's power as a cleric = your divine spellcaster level. additionally, that domain's spells are now added to your available spell list (but are not automatically added to your spells known).
restricted domain access (e.g., alignment, etc.) still applies.
You may only take this feat twice; each time choosing a different domain.
For this to make more sense, I first need to give a quick explanation of how I plan on handling religion/pantheons for this game (though, it is still in the very early developmental stages, so bear with me):
I'm going with an ambiguous approach to religion, with a kinda "intelligent design" + "the gods are everywhere" concept, where a person can find spiritual inspiration in just about anything. the deities are largely absentee -- the basic creation myth will be essentially consistent, with differences reflecting the different races. I plan on developing a history littered with hero-prophets, harbinger-villains, and divine oracles that have inspired and otherwise contributed to the current culture and society.
So, whatcha think?
Originally posted by jgumbyrx:
I'm kinda stuck on economy in an E6 world.
As I see it, the size and scale of economies in this system would be greatly reduced. As such, stuff like GP-limit for towns/cities/etc. would necessarily need to be adjusted.
Thoughts? I've read the Economicon (here and here), but I'm still unsure what things should look like in an E6 world.
Originally posted by Airos:
me likes -- thanks a bunch!
_______________________________
I'm trying to work out how to implement domains. Here's what I've got so far (PEACH):
Domain Access
prereq: knowledge (religion) 4 ranks ; divine spellcaster
benefit: chose a cleric domain ; you now have access to that domain's power as a cleric = your divine spellcaster level. additionally, that domain's spells are now added to your available spell list (but are not automatically added to your spells known).
restricted domain access (e.g., alignment, etc.) still applies.
You may only take this feat twice; each time choosing a different domain.
For this to make more sense, I first need to give a quick explanation of how I plan on handling religion/pantheons for this game (though, it is still in the very early developmental stages, so bear with me):
I'm going with an ambiguous approach to religion, with a kinda "intelligent design" + "the gods are everywhere" concept, where a person can find spiritual inspiration in just about anything. the deities are largely absentee -- the basic creation myth will be essentially consistent, with differences reflecting the different races. I plan on developing a history littered with hero-prophets, harbinger-villains, and divine oracles that have inspired and otherwise contributed to the current culture and society.
So, whatcha think?
Well, I'm of two minds about this.
It doesn't grant any ability to actually cast those domain spells. Given that there are no 0-level domain spells, this is providing access to 3 spells, (assuming that they're not already on the cleric list). Add in the fact that 'normal' clerics would get these spells in addition to their normal spells per day. It seems a little harsh to make them take at least 3 feats to gain the spells themselves, (this and Expanded Spell Knowledge twice; once for the 1st and 2nd level spells; again for the 3rd level spell, assuming that they wait until 6th class level to gain the first two spells).
Then again, most domain spells are on the cleric list already; It may be worth 2 feats to gain a few Sor/Wiz spells without any restrictions on when you can cast it, (since without domain spell slots it could be cast up to their daily spell limit). This may lead to the divine caster be the true 'win' in this game since the cleric/druid use the same list. You'll have your pick of healing/buff/divination/utility spells, with a good selection of direct damage from the druid list and a sprinkle of arcane only spells. Throw in Wild Shape, and this can make for a very powerful CoDzilla, (although it would need to be termed the "C&Dzilla").
So, one part of me wants to make it better and another part of me wants to burn it with fire. I don't know if that means 'balanced' to me, but it may to you.
My thought is to leave it alone. Seriously, just because the PCs won't have greater than the wealth of 7th-8th level characters doesn't mean that objects costing more than that much gold cease to be traded in the economy. I could easily see the services of a 6th level wizard costing more than the market value of a 6th level item, since they can make 6th level items. If people can command that high a wage, then there needs to be an economy that can support that high of a wage.
Magic Item Compendium tells us that no 8th level item should have a market price greater than 4,000 gold, (or more accurately that no item worth more than 4,000 gold should be in the hands of 8th level characters without reason). It requires a small city to find that item for 'sale' under the existing rules.
Just by limiting the PCs access to cities you limit their buying power, but only for the premium end. They can still access general utility items, such as scrolls, wands and potions, but can only 'buy' high ticket items when their adventures permit. Even if they do wind up in an area where the economy can support the sale and trade of 45,000gp items it doesn't mean a thing when the most powerful items in the world are only 6th level items. They'll still only have the money for such purchases when they're the appropriate level.
No matter how bad the economic system is in D&D, it's so tightly tied to the entire balance of the system it's dangerous to start messing with it. Item values are balanced against item power, which is balanced against character level, which is balanced against wealth per level, which is balanced against treasure per encounter, which is balanced against town gp limits, which is balanced against item values, (whew!).
To me, the economy in a D&D game is just a set piece. It has no more impact on the game or the setting than what type of tree is indigenous to the region, or the color of the sky in mid-autumn. D&D isn't generally concerned with the balance of the world so much as the balance of the party.
But you know what? I'm not a economy geek. D&D is a very nerdy game, and some very nerdy people play it. Everyone wants to put in to their D&D game the nerdy things they love, be it economics, astronomy, genetics, complex weather patterns, historical accuracy, comic book heroes, etc... It doesn't mean that it's a bad idea to start messing with things to make it a more fun game for your group.
If D&D economic systems bug the crap out of you, toss 'em away! If you just think that because everybody is lower level it means that everyone is poorer, then I wouldn't start messing with it.
