E6 with Generic Classes

[wotmaniac]

Hi!

I'm trying to put together ideas for a potential E6 campaign that will be using Generic Classes from UA. What I like about that combo is that there will be less stagnation after the characters hit level 6, as I plan on having this go to about ~100,000 XP (give or take 20k), starting at level 1.
I realize that there will need to be a couple of changes/adjustments, but these are very simple:
- Spellcasters will have their spell selection limited -- Arcane Spellcasters can only pick spells that appear on arcane casters' lists ; Divine Spellcasters can only pick spells that appear on divine casters' lists.
- add more class features to the list of available "bonus feats"

New Generic Class Bonus Feats:
[sblock]
Turn/Rebuke Undead
Prereq: Knowledge (Religion) 4 ranks
Benefit: you are able to turn or rebuke undead, as per the cleric ability, 1+cha mod times per day. Characters of good alignment can only Turn ; characters of evil alignment can only Rebuke ; neutral characters must choose whether they turn or rebuke at the time they take this feat, and this decision cannot be changed once it is made.

Wild Shape
Prereq: Wild empathy ; Handle Animal 4 ranks ; Knowledge (nature) 8 ranks
Benefit: you are now able to use wild shape, as per the druid ability.
Special: prereqs of the E6 feat "mighty wild shape" are now: wild shape, knowledge (nature) 11 ranks

Rage
Prereq: BAB +1 ; STR 13+ ; Power Attack ; proficiency in all simple and martial weapons, and all light and medium armors
Benefit: you can Rage once per day, as per the barbarian ability.

Fast movement
Prereq: Dex 13+ ; Dash
Benefit: add +10ft to your base movement speed. This feat overlaps (does not stack) with Dash.

Bardic Music
Prereq: Perform 3 ranks
Benefit: when you take this feat, you gain 1 daily use of bardic music. You also gain the fascinate and countersong bardic music abilities.

Inspire Courage
Prereq: Perform 3 ranks ; Bardic Music
Benefit: you now add inspire courage to your list of Bardic Music abilities.
Special: prereqs of the E6 feat "Bardic Inspiration" are now: Bardic Music ; Inspire Courage ; Perform 11 ranks.

Inspire Competence
Prereq: Bardic Music ; Perform 6 ranks
Benefit: add inspire competence to your list of Bardic Music abilities.

Suggestion
Prereqs: Bardic Music ; Perform 9 ranks
Benefit: add the suggestion bard ability to your list of Bardic Music abilities.

Lay on Hands
Prereqs: CHA 12+ ; Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks ; Heal 2 ranks ; good alignment
Benefit: you gain the "lay on hands" ability (as per paladin) = character level x CHA mod.

Domain Access
Prereq: knowledge (religion) 4 ranks ; divine spellcaster
Benefit: chose a cleric domain ; you now have access to that domain's power as a cleric = your divine spellcaster level. additionally, that domain's spells are now added to your available spell list (but are not automatically added to your spells known).
restricted domain access (e.g., alignment, etc.) still applies.
You may only take this feat twice; each time choosing a different domain.

[/sblock]

Also, "wild cohort" would have as a prereq: Handle Animal 4 ranks. Throw in "natural bond", and you now have a full AC.

I'll eventually add a bunch more feats for this ; feel free to add your own.

So anyways, I wanted to get your guys' thoughts.


Thanks.

 

[Ilja]

The idea is great, but I'm not so sure about how you pulled this of, because of one simple thing: Feat balance.

These feats are incredibly powerful compared to other feats. Who'd choose Dodge or even Power Attack when you could have Rage? Sure, at high exp this won't matter as much since you'll get most feats you want anyway, but at low levels it will make the game hard to balance. I do think the bardic feats are okay, and could even get another usage per feat.

Wild Shape and Turn Undead really depends on times/day. If it's once per day, it's a little too powerful. If it's higher, it's far too powerful. Turn Undead should probably be 1/day as cleric of your level -3, with an "improved" version that is 2/day and at your cleric level. Wild Shape is probably fine with 1/day (or even you could take it several times for more uses).

Fast Movement feels on the strong side (I'd probably take it with most of my characters) but not far too powerful.

 

[wotmaniac]

The idea is great, but I'm not so sure about how you pulled this of, because of one simple thing: Feat balance.

I'm listening

These feats are incredibly powerful compared to other feats. Who'd choose Dodge or even Power Attack when you could have Rage? Sure, at high exp this won't matter as much since you'll get most feats you want anyway, but at low levels it will make the game hard to balance.

Good point. I went ahead and added Power Attack to the prereq -- how's that? (kind of a "first you learn to hit hard - then you learn it hit really hard" ; I think that the "feat tax" should balance it out a little -- it is only a 1st-level ability)
Besides, nobody in my whole group takes dodge except as a prereq for stuff

I do think the bardic feats are okay, and could even get another usage per feat.

that's what "extra music" from CAdv is for

Wild Shape and Turn Undead really depends on times/day. If it's once per day, it's a little too powerful. If it's higher, it's far too powerful. Turn Undead should probably be 1/day as cleric of your level -3, with an "improved" version that is 2/day and at your cleric level. Wild Shape is probably fine with 1/day (or even you could take it several times for more uses).

Changed "turn undead" to 1+cha mod. "Extra turning" and "extra wildshape" takes care of the rest.

Fast Movement feels on the strong side (I'd probably take it with most of my characters) but not far too powerful.

I thought so too, but couldn't think of any appropriate prereqs.

Thanks -- 'preciate it!

 

[Aus_Snow]

I thought so too, but couldn't think of any appropriate prereqs.

Dash, from CW? Then you could also modify Fast Movement to apply only when wearing light or no armour (more appropriate anyway, IMO.) Er, and I wouldn't have them stack.

Though that actually loads it up with two prereq feats (Run being such for Dash.) Still, that mightn't be out of the question.

Then again, I tend to hand out feats left and right, so it quite possibly doesn't look as harsh to me.

 

[wotmaniac]

Dash, from CW? Then you could also modify Fast Movement to apply only when wearing light or no armour (more appropriate anyway, IMO.) Er, and I wouldn't have them stack.

Though that actually loads it up with two prereq feats (Run being such for Dash.) Still, that mightn't be out of the question.

Then again, I tend to hand out feats left and right, so it quite possibly doesn't look as harsh to me.

PERFECT!!! (though I don't see where the "run" prereq is -- doesn't seem to have made it in to my copy?)
Thanks!

 

[ValhallaGH]

Who'd choose Dodge or even Power Attack when you could have Rage?

Me. Because Rage gets you dead*, and Power Attack makes your enemies die (Doge is worthless without house rules, except as a gateway feat). Also, Rage 1 / day is fairly weak if you regularly have more than 1 combat per day. The Extra Rage feat gives you another three per day by itself.

*Rage reduces your AC by 2 and gives you up to 12 hp (in E6). This means that foes will hit 10% more often, which quickly eliminates any bonus HP you gained. Then the rage ends, immediately reducing the PC from hurt but fighting to dying (unless he was at 2 or less hp, in which case he's just dead). If your foes are CR 8 or higher, Rage generally kills you faster than it kills your enemies.

Wild Shape and Turn Undead really depends on times/day. If it's once per day, it's a little too powerful. If it's higher, it's far too powerful. Turn Undead should probably be 1/day as cleric of your level -3, with an "improved" version that is 2/day and at your cleric level. Wild Shape is probably fine with 1/day (or even you could take it several times for more uses).

Well, that's backwards.

Wild Shape is either useless or incredibly powerful, depending upon what you can turn into (and if your DM is crazy enough to allow the utterly broken Natural Spell feat). Leave that at 2 / day (it's cool and annoying it multiple times per day is cool, but be wary of what you allow).

Turn Undead is only potentially useful if you're fighting a group of undead whose individual HD are roughly equal to your effective Cleric level. As a level 6 party, you may fight Grey Render zombies which are a reasonable CR 6, with 20 hit dice (making them immune to Turn Undead from a Cleric of less than 16th level).
Allowing the standard 3 + Cha turns per day (and the Extra Turning feat) should be perfectly fine, unless you use a lot of high CR / low HD intelligent undead foes (low-level vampires, low-level liches, etc).

Also, unless your E6 game is extremely different from all the ones I'm familiar with, no PC can ever get more than 9 ranks in a skill, making Mighty Wild Shape an impossibility.


Good luck.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Wildshape as a feat always felt really strong to me. The Shapeshift variant in PHB2, or the UA Aspect of Nature variant might be a little easier to break down into a chain of feats.

I assume your using some sort of "SKill Beyond your Years" feat, as well, to hit the 11 rank prereqs you list here and there?

Just curious: Aside from the "class feature" feats you've listed, what others are you using? Just the basic ones suggested in Stoughton's E6 doc, or have you incorporated others, as well?

 

[wotmaniac]

Wildshape as a feat always felt really strong to me. The Shapeshift variant in PHB2, or the UA Aspect of Nature variant might be a little easier to break down into a chain of feats.

hence the prereqs -- I'm cool with it.
As to the alternatives -- definitely worth looking in to (I actually hadn't thought of that) -- thanks.

I assume your using some sort of "SKill Beyond your Years" feat, as well, to hit the 11 rank prereqs you list here and there?

Yes I am -- it's what gave me the idea to be able to have such high prereqs.

Just curious: Aside from the "class feature" feats you've listed, what others are you using? Just the basic ones suggested in Stoughton's E6 doc, or have you incorporated others, as well?

I'm going on the assumption that any feat for which the character can normally qualify is open game -- and I've got a PILE of books.
Of course, I still won't allow feats that I wouldn't normally -- I'll probably be a little more restrictive, but I'll address things on a case-by-case basis.
Also, I plan on making more "class feature feats" ; I only stopped so as to take a little break.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

I'm going on the assumption that any feat for which the character can normally qualify is open game -- and I've got a PILE of books.
Of course, I still won't allow feats that I wouldn't normally -- I'll probably be a little more restrictive, but I'll address things on a case-by-case basis.
Also, I plan on making more "class feature feats" ; I only stopped so as to take a little break.

Nice!

Well, it sounds like a pretty nifty game, especially if you're going all the way to 100,000XP. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Enjoy!

 

[wotmaniac]

I'm trying to work out how to implement domains. Here's what I've got so far (PEACH):

Domain Access
prereq: knowledge (religion) 4 ranks ; divine spellcaster
benefit: chose a cleric domain ; you now have access to that domain's power as a cleric = your divine spellcaster level. additionally, that domain's spells are now added to your available spell list (but are not automatically added to your spells known).
restricted domain access (e.g., alignment, etc.) still applies.
You may only take this feat twice; each time choosing a different domain.



For this to make more sense, I first need to give a quick explanation of how I plan on handling religion/pantheons for this game (though, it is still in the very early developmental stages, so bear with me):
I'm going with an ambiguous approach to religion, with a kinda "intelligent design" + "the gods are everywhere" concept, where a person can find spiritual inspiration in just about anything. the deities are largely absentee -- the basic creation myth will be essentially consistent, with differences reflecting the different races. I plan on developing a history littered with hero-prophets, harbinger-villains, and divine oracles that have inspired and otherwise contributed to the current culture and society.

So, whatcha think?