Earth elementals/constructs and cleric domains

[boxstop7]

Start your own game dude. This DM is a "Im God" DM and you should never play a a game run by one of them. Seems to me ther are enought players to start your own.

Ahh...but here's the problem. Another player in the group runs a different campaign that I'm part of. My "playing partner" right now is the DM I'm complaining about. So I'd look really bad making a huge fuss about his DMing style, then having to go play with him the next day. Plus, I'm taking over a game I've been in at home, and my first session as DM is coming up in early Feb. I guess I'll just grin and bear it. It's only been a few sessions. Maybe it's just me, and it'll get better...

~Box

 

[Hypersmurf]

This keeps getting spread as offical on the boards and its very annoing as it is not core rules.

Well, neither is a critical hit with Enervation draining twice as many levels. But it does appear in a WotC supplement, and if someone asks "Does a critical hit with Enervation drain twice as many levels", you're more likely to see "Yes - see Tome and Blood" than "Well, it depends if your DM wants to include the rule from Tome and Blood or not". The WotC supplements are generally considered official sources.

So when the FAQ and D&Dg say that saves follow the auto-failure/auto-success rule, there is room for argument as to whether or not it is official...

-Hyp.

 

[Andion Isurand]

Even if the natural 1's (auto-failures) and 20's (auto-success) apply to saving throws or not, I would DM using it as a variant, so Enemies and PCs alike don't get too cocky.

Besides, this preferance of mine was reinforced after reading the 'Otto's Irresistable Dance' spell.....

 

[AuraSeer]

Like I said, we've encountered the air, fire and water versions thus far. I've been peeved on several occasions. First, we get no AoO when these things cast spells, b/c their concentration numbers are so high. He doesn't even allow us to attempt it.

This is how it's supposed to work. When a creature casts on the defensive, it does not draw an AoO at all. The tradeoff is that it must make a Concentration check in order to complete the spell. Skill checks do not automatically fail on a 1, so if the creature's Concentration modifier is high enough, it need not roll the check at all.

Second, these things have yet to roll saves (with one exception, a single reflex save). Fort saves haven't come up, and the damned things have a will save bonus so high they don't even have to roll. Even our 11th level wizard can't make them roll a will save. Third, there's the spell resistance. The wizard is 4 levels higher than my cleric, and he rolled a natural 20 and added the appropriate numbers and STILL didn't get through the friggin' thing's SR!!!

Hmm. Well, my guess would be that the things are based on golems, and are immune to most magic. There should be a couple of effects that will work on them, but against the majority of spells they effectively have infinite SR.

Note that even if they lack the wide magic immunity of a normal golem, they may just not be affected by the spells you have tried. Elementals are immune to paralysis, stunning, and sleep; constructs are immune to those plus mind-affecting spells, and most effects that require a Fortitude save.

It's always possible that your DM is playing "screw the spellcasters" with your campaign, but I'd want a little more info before jumping to that conclusion.

 

[boxstop7]

Heh...I hijacked my own thread! Anyway, back to the original topic:

I'm not sure if you'd consider a golem a "construct", but he flat-out told us that these things are constructs. And it's not just these "elemental construct" critters, either. Nearly everything we've encountered (since I joined the group) has had hellacious saves, insane concentration checks and a spell resistance that we can penetrate, on average, about 5% of the time. He then proceeds to buff them up with all sorts of protection spells (like "fire shield" and such). But the protection spells are custom jobs (fire shield was 10 feet around the critter, instead of the normal 5), so the melee characters get hosed as well. They end up taking massive amounts of damage before they ever get close enough to swing a sword. He even rules, on occasion (read: when it suits his whim), that dispel magic (which has no save and ignores SR) fails b/c he doesn't want his critters defeated. And there's other crazy stuff. One of them had a staff that it threw over 400 ft. at us, had it cast cone of cold (DC was like upper 20's to lower 30's), and then it returned to the critter's hand. All in one round. *sigh* Shoot me.

~Box

 

[Pax]

Originally posted by boxstop7
Thanks, MD. That clarified things a little bit. Just b/c I'm bored, I'll give some more info on the "me vs. them" mentality...

Like I said, we've encountered the air, fire and water versions thus far. I've been peeved on several occasions. First, we get no AoO when these things cast spells, b/c their concentration numbers are so high. He doesn't even allow us to attempt it.[/b]

With a high enough concentration, you don't GET the attempt. "Cast defensively" does exactly that.

Here's the perverse angle though: it has to be DECLARED as having been cast defensively. No respectable GM should say "oh yeah, forgot that, he'll cast defensively then" unless he lets the players/PC's do the same (IOW, what's good for the goose is, or at least should be, good for the gander).

Second, these things have yet to roll saves (with one exception, a single reflex save). Fort saves haven't come up, and the damned things have a will save bonus so high they don't even have to roll.

Your GM is flat-out wrong on the rules here. Eitehr s/he didn't read the entirety of the rules, or s/he is directly cheating.

A roll of "1" ALWAYS fails a saving throw, or misses with an attack.

Just like a roll of "20" ALWAYS succeeds at a saving throw, or hits with an attack.

Frankly, if I were in that group, I'd start to get more than a little inclined to ask to SEE those rolls, too. There's NO reason a GM should need a creature to make EVERY saving throw, period, no exception (mind, I'm also disinclined to disagree if the GM says "yeah but that SPECIFIC spell kinda screws the whole STORY over if you hit THIS specific NPC/monster with it" -- if it doesn't become a universal excuse ofc).

Even our 11th level wizard can't make them roll a will save. Third, there's the spell resistance. The wizard is 4 levels higher than my cleric, and he rolled a natural 20 and added the appropriate numbers and STILL didn't get through the friggin' thing's SR!!! *sigh* I'm beginning to wonder if there's a point to playing in this game any longer.

~Box

No GM should ever (IMO) throw an SR, except for critical end-stage bosses, that is that high.

Take all the primarily-a-spall-caster characters. For non-bosses, the highest level spellcaster should have to roll (IMO) roughly a 10, give or take a few. 15 for challenging creatures.

Even if it's a boss monster, the lowest-level caster whose SOLE role is throwing spells at the badguys, shouldn't fail on a roll of natural 20 except in campaign-ending finales.

IF even then.

I hate to say it, but -- have a long, hard talk with your GM. Remind him or her that it's NOT supposed to be an adversarial experience between the GM and the players.

If s/he cannot or will not see reason .... find a new GM.

 

[boxstop7]

Good words so far...thanks. But I'm beginning to think that my in-game frustration is simply displaced frustration with personality conflict. In all honesty, I probably wouldn't even complain if the DM wasn't so damned COCKY about it. If the critters have saves that high, for example, if he'd roll the save and say "it made its save", that's fine. But he just looks at us, leans to the side, gets this smug little grin on his face and says "It doesn't need to roll." GRRRRR! That's what really ruffles my panties here.

The consensus seems to be "have a talk with the DM". I'm reluctant to do that b/c this is a game that's been going on for over a year now, and I've just entered it a few weeks ago. I still don't even understand the majority of the story line. To be honest, I'm completely lost. The only reason I was even invited into this group was b/c they lost 2 players, and some of these guys know me from another group. I *had* to play a cleric (which I don't mind at all) b/c they didn't have one any more. I'm starting to get the feeling that the only reason I'm there is to play the medic, even though my cleric is a combat cleric and has the highest AC and can deal the most melee damage. I'll stop ranting now.

~Box

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Your DM is not following the CR charts at all. A creature with CR equal to party level plus 4 is getting close to TPK. If you have more party members (than 4) and/or are using higher stats than usual, or some kind of twinks, then the critical CR goes up.

Nonetheless, at some point you will still face creatures too tough to face, and if every single creature that you face is too tough, then your DM is being overly harsh.

Digression:
The only creature that I've used that has no chance of failing a save was the Colossal Scorpion. A savant (psion) wanted to Disintegrate it. He rolled high to set the save DC. I rolled a "3" on the save. Then again, I made it clear from my facial expression that rolling the saving throw dice was a formality.

The Colossal Scorpion is not a CR 11 creature. It's more like a 16 or 17. The savant used up half of his power points using Scaled Foritified multiple times Mass Concussion (high number of d4s) before the thing finally fell.

 

[AuraSeer]

boxstop7, it does sounds like this DM is on a serious power trip. If I were a player in your situation, I'd take my dice and go home.

You don't need to confront the DM about how much he sucks; that might be a little rude, since you're the new guy and the other players are okay with it. But the whole point of D&D is having fun, which you're obviously not. Drop that campaign and let 'em use an NPC medic.