Eberron and the Book of Revelation

[Krieg]

...

 

[nameless]

While I think this is a pretty interesting topic, I agree with what Psion said earlier.

The Bible is the literary largest literary basis for fantasy, vis-a-vis the fairy tales of old. Most symbolism in western literature is strongly based on the Bible, as well. A division between the earth, what lies above it, and what lies below it is an incredibly pervasive symbol in all cultures, for instance. Even though the book of Revelations is centuries old, I'd call Eberron a parallel story, not a derivative one.

And while I respect your belief and your tremendous open-mindedness about playing a game like D&D, Kai Lord, I'd be more comfortable if we didn't debate the morality of players of D&D. I'm fine with playing devil's advocate when discussing characters, but I (and I'm sure a lot of others) have passionate beliefs of my own. I think you get my point, I don't want to make a big stink over a little issue. =]

 

[Snoweel]

The idea of world serpents predates the creation of christianity. Off the top of my head I can think of the Midgaard Serpent from Norse mythology. Serpents are a universal symbol of wisdom, enlightenment and fertility as you look across all of the different cultures around the world.

I found a related point when I started to research Egyptian mythology for my own cosmology. The parallels between it and the mythology of the Christian/Judaic/early-middle-eastern-monotheistic-religion (which the Bible admits are 3 stages of the same unbroken religious heritage, fyi, stretching back past recorded history) are uncanny.

Though in the case of these middle-eastern traditions (which are much older than your Norse mythology), the serpent is universally a symbol of deception and spite.

And things coming in 3's are also very common with archetypes such as Maiden/Crone/Mother, Father/Son/Holy-Ghost, Brahmin/Shiva/Vishnu, or Our-Side/Their-Side/Everything-In-Between.

True.

Now to kill this thread...
HAIL SATAN!!!!

Actively trying to kill a thread because you don't like the topic is liable to get you banned.

Take it from a veteran.

 

[trollwad]

Whether you believe in Christianity or not, this thread is mildly interesting. It would be hard to grow up in the West and not have SOME aspect of Christianity/Judaism embedded in your subconscious or conscious mind. Guys like JRR Tolkein and CS Lewis intentionally put numerous analogues and references into their work. I dont know Keith Baker, I dont know anything about his background, but I wouldnt be shocked if a wellspring of western culture seeped into his setting (whether he put it there intentionally is another matter and I dont know enough to opine about it).

The guys who are talking about killing the thread (if they are serious) are just as narrow minded as right wing ideologues who want to get everything that they disagree with pulled from the public library. The forum originator was very careful to be polite (in most of his post at least), and he drew some reasonable factually supported analogies (which may still be a coincidence). Personally, Id love to run into Keith Baker at a con and say "hey man did you (1) intentionally put anything in there or (2) did you read the bible a lot growing up or now?" It might be an interesting conversation. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[d4]

Do I beleive that in doing so, Gygax was teaching something contrary to his religious beliefs? (Gygax is Christian, Jehevah's Witness to be exact, from what I hear) No. Because his work is not a religious text or sermon. It's a game.

i think this is the most relevant thing.

i can understand where Kai Lord is coming from, but i can't agree with it. if i, as an atheist, were to follow a similar tack, i would have to not allow myself to ever play a cleric or a paladin, or in a campaign setting that had active gods. for that matter, i don't believe in magic either, so perhaps i shouldn't play wizards or sorcerers, or in settings that have working magic.

i find it interesting that Kai Lord doesn't have a problem with fantasy elements that are Evil (magic, dragons), but he dislikes using fantasy elements that are Good.

 

[cybermonkey]

Overall, interesting observation.

So what does that mean for us? Its for each one of us to decide. I know now that I?ll never play a dragonmarked character, or run an Eberron campaign where the three progenitors are anything other than cast down beasts who are evil to the core. I?m a Christian, and creating and playing heroic characters who draw power from the dragon in the earth while brandishing their marks named after the beast is a place I?m just not going to go. I don?t see any good coming out of that.

It takes a certain amount of guts to put one's faith on the line like that, especially on boards like this. I commend your efforts.

 

[M.L. Martin]

Not only that, I don't even have any good magic in my world. Pretty crazy huh?

I think magic can be worked with, although in the process it often winds up more science. John Granger, an Eastern Orthodox Christian who's written some fascinating stuff on Harry Potter, has pointed out the difference between 'invocational' magic--calling on spirits or 'forces' to do something--and 'incantational' magic--working with the natural order of things.

I haven't always done this mind you, but the more I've studied the Bible over the years the more certain elements of D&D end up getting repainted to suit my convictions. But that's just me and where my heart's at on the matter.

I've noticed the same pattern in my own approach to gaming, actually, and I share your qualms about the treatment of dragons.

EDIT: Oh and I do have silver and gold dragons in my world (currently a Dragonlance campaign), but they just pretend to be good....

Hmm....you've started the gears spinning on Yet Another Dragonlance Reenvisioning. Be afraid.

Matthew L. Martin, Catholic and gamer

 

[Krieg]

The guys who are talking about killing the thread (if they are serious) are just as narrow minded as right wing ideologues who want to get everything that they disagree with pulled from the public library.

....because of course only "right wing ideologues" push to suppress speech they disagree with.

Ahh, my kingdom for the banned *eye roll* icon...

The forum originator was very careful to be polite (in most of his post at least),

Of course I can only assume you mean the "thread" originator; as the forum originator has a longstanding policy against religious discussions within the forum.

 

[Gothmog]

Kai Lord, I think you're worried about nothing here. Its a really interesting analysis, and brings up some compelling campaign possibilities. Its almost inevitable that literature, movies, and games will draw some from the Bible, which itself drew upon earlier religions and mythologies. However, its just a game, its make-believe, and has no bearing to real life or any sort of spirituality.

 

[cyferwolf]

I repsectfully disagree with your viewpoint and your methods of proving it. I humbly ask that you consider the many people have been gravely hurt by the kind of justifications you are using. please be careful using the bible, or any religous text, to prove your points. they can be very powerful even in the hands of well meaning people.