[Eberron] How are YOU going to handle the NPC level issue?

[Plane Sailing]

If I ever get my Eberron game started, I'd consider moving some of the key NPCs up in level as the PCs advance to preserve the differential.

Precisely what the designer (Keith Baker) has said he had in mind for those mind-level enemies, so you are in good company.

Cheers

 

[froggie]

I cast Prismatic Sphere and walk around

at 10 minutes per level, I don't care if you have 100,000 in your army. My 20th level wizard kills them all

 

[froggie]

oh yeah

after I clone your 5 kings, assassinate the real ones, and cause civil war in every kingdom by having the clones do things like decimate the army, burn crops, overtax the poor and declare magic illegal...after having all the high priests temples burnt to the ground...

 

[Fedifensor]

House Cannith and Eldritch Machines

One thing to remember is while Eberron has few high-level characters, they have a LOT of mid-level characters, often with access to specialized resources that outstrip even a 20th level wizard.

Case in point - House Cannith. In Sharn alone they have 5 members of the Darkwood Watch, which are all Cannith Wand Adepts (at least 10th level in order to have a level of the PrC. Other house members in Sharn include Merrix d'Cannith (a 12th level character) and Tarya d'Cannith (a 10th level character). They also have a horde of lower-level artificers and magewrights. Put all that together and you have a lot of people who can work together to come up with something to stop the wizard (see below for details)

Eberron also has the great equalizer - Eldritch Machines. Imagine a one-use custom machine that can inhibit or neutralize the magical power of a specific target, no matter how powerful, if they can get a sample of his blood or hair. If a 20th level wizard started going berzerk and using meteor swarm on every city where House Cannith had a business interest, you can bet that every secret laboratory of the House would dedicate their resources to building such a machine to stop him. And, over 20 levels, how much blood and hair has that 20th level wizard lost during adventures? I bet a Master Inquisitive could find a sample.

Or, the simple solution. Just tell the player, "Dude, you're wrecking my game, and it isn't fun to DM anymore. Knock it off or find yourself another gaming group." Eberron is a more subtle setting where the fun is solving the adventure without always pulling out the Staff of Kick-Ass. Killing kings and razing cities with impunity may sell "Wizards Gone Wild" videos, but doesn't really fit the setting.

 

[jollyninja]

That's one of the things that bugs me about DnD. There's no social class that doesn't get sneak attacks, magic or other such baggage.

I can stat Cao Cao up in D20 Modern just fine.

Sorry, somewhat off-topic.

now not to quibble and i know it's not dnd strictly (d20 compatable with 3e) but the courtier class in the rokugan campaign setting seems created specifically for such a character. all they have is their natural education, wit and charm to get them through. it's a really interesting class and gestalts well with ninja but anyway........

to the point of the thread, the only hole i see int the 20th level characters can kill the kings (and whatever other politicos you wish to mention) at will arguement is that while the current crop of regents may not be high level characters, you can't possibly be thinking that during the century long war that just ended, no wizards and other high level characters did this. and that the other regents of that time period and the now dead regent's heir wouldn't make their personal residence proof to such things as teleporting and such. if the mages can build hover trains, they can surely have devised adequate security measures to keep a single person or party of persons from killing their beloved (or at least rich) leaders. and i'll bet that a great deal of royal money has gone into devising such security systems. even simple things like spells that have the effect of a ray of enfeeblement but on a 10' radius area so as to not be hampered by spellturning and are maximised in a wand carried by the royal guard each of whom are trained as wizards for one of their levels just so they can use said items en masse on any bastard stupid enough to attack the king. job number one for the regents of the last century has been to not die and to keep their kids alive. they probably devised better ways then that to do it.

and why is it that being an experienced field operative should mean you get to have global influence? granted if you have cultivated it great but being the greatest swordsman on the planet just means that when you get hit with ray of enfeeblement, it takes four in stead of three to take you down enough to prevent you from moving in all that heavy fighter equipment so the level 9 sorceror's remaining two peons can finish you. granted, the rest of the party would kill this encounter effectively but that's why you don't attack the fighter until he's alone if you are the level 9 sorceror and minions.

i've played in campaigns where my level 20 wizard had no competition and if there have ever been high level wizards in the setting (which clearly in ebberon there have been many) most of the old things people don't want you in should be protected against normal uses of ph spells at least. or does the royal treasury not warrant even minimal protection against magical invasion. if people could teleport in our world, the white house would have protection against that, the secret service would have tactics devised for dealing with it ingrained into their training from day one. there would be security measures taken against whatever threats existed.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I'm using GURPS - which is ideal for that sort of gaming level. Even high-point characters are still vulnerable (unless you are talking about dragons and similar entities)

And GURPS also allows me to do a lot of tricks easily that I would have a lot of difficulty doing in D&D - like social influence and contacts, more individualized dragonmark powers, and so on...

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Only role playing in such a case will usually only lead to downfall if your players have the right skills because their skill totals will be much, much higher. "Yeah, I bribe the family into allowing me in to kill X. My diplomacy is 32 and my sense motive 28."

I think diplomacy +32 doesn't necessarily mean you can get anyone to do what you want - not without telling the GM how you are going to proceed. If you want someone to go against their ingrained beliefs and their duties, you will need to come up with a good reason why they should do so, no matter how high your diplomacy skill is - and that's roleplaying.

The advantage of high diplomacy bonuses is that you can use much flimsier excuses, and present them much more convincingly, than people with lower bonuses. And high Sense Motive bonuses will give you a much better idea about what stories might work.

If one of my players simply told me: "Yeah, I bribe the family into allowing me in to kill X.", I wouldn't even allow a roll. He isn't role-playing at all, and the best he could hope for is that the family doesn't immediately call for the watch.

However, if he says: "I engage the family father in some friendly general chatter about the city and gradually try to find more about his family's financial situation.", then I'd allow him to roll against his epic Diplomacy and Sense Motive skills to find an opening. While someone with +0 in both wouldn't get far without exceptional role-playing, this guy can probably easily convince that he is "only going to play a harmless prank on an old friend, and here is something for your trouble." While the family father probably knows at some level that he is doing something wrong, the Diplomacy skill allowed him to bury his doubts deeply in his mind. Later on, he will tell the Watch that he was quite shocked when he noticed the dead body in the morning. He might even believe that himself.

In summary: Skills don't substitute for role-playing, they complement it. Or at least that's how I handle things, and I am sticking to it.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

It could lead to some great role playing potential. I mean imagine if they went into the Mournlands for example and wiped out the Lord of Blades. For say, 4-6 20th level characters, he wouldn't represent much of a challenge, even if they teleported into the middle of his camp. Who rules the Mournlands now?

No one, really - the Mournlands are too big and ungovernable, with too many creepy monsters. Even the LoB only controlled a small area.

Sure, the PCs could probably kick the butt of anything else in the Mournlands. But they can't be everywhere at once - to truly control a country, you need an army loyal to you.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Dude, this scenario is NEVER going to happen. Five nations are not going to get together to tackle one dude. Like I've said many times, some of those nations would consider what the mage did good and ally with him.

Exactly. They can't defeat him, so they will do the next best thing: Flatter him. Let their most adept social engineers find out what makes him tick. Invite him to their social functions. Involve him in their intrigues. Maybe even marry a pretty daughter off to him.

Soon he will be so completely ensnared in their webs of intrigue that he will be dancing to their tunes without ever realizing it. Sure, he might be individually more intelligent than they are - but they have played this game for all their lives. They have all the connections, and collectively know more than he does. When he realizes what is happening, he will be involved with so many factions that he will either have to continue playing the Great Game, or flee from it entirely.

And this is how you play high-level D&D - with lots of intrigue and paranoia!

 

[Henry]

Sounds like we have a lot of DMs here that really know how to keep their players on their toes, no matter WHAT level of power we're talking.

I really don't see it as a problem; for every high-level player, there are high-level (whether physical or intellectual) opposition forces that can challenge them.