Eberron = power creep or just pushing the envelope?
- Thread starter Graf
- Start date
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Yeah, the difference being I wasn't one of those decrying the MT as overpowered....in fact, other than the occasional FR glorp (like calling the regional feats overpowered), WotC has been pretty evehanded in their treatment of balance. An ECL +0 race with any sort of outright immunity is overpowered as far as I can see. I'm not saying the setting can't balance it; it can, and can do so well. But the Warforged are 'more power' than average D&D. This only means that they are mighty. It's not even a *negative* nessecarily; it's just a statement of an observation.
Even if the setting balances the Warforged in itself, it's still then a 'more powerful setting' than standard D&D. I can't take a Dwarf and a Warforged of the same level and put them through the same encounter and have them spend the same 20% of their resources, except in certain circumstances whose commonality in a campaign are completely subjective.
Take a Level 1 Commoner of each race (in the PHB and this thread) with 10-average-stats, and stick them up against every CR 1 or less critter in the MM (and include the Eberron monsters too, sure), and the two do not come out equally.
This isn't judging it before it is seen -- I see it, it's the preview right in front of me. And now I can judge it. I'm not judging Eberron, I'm saying the race in this preview seems too powerful for +0 ECL. If you don't think so, defend the position (like those who defended the feat did) instead of trying to paint the opposition as ignorant.
Even if the setting balances the Warforged in itself, it's still then a 'more powerful setting' than standard D&D. I can't take a Dwarf and a Warforged of the same level and put them through the same encounter and have them spend the same 20% of their resources, except in certain circumstances whose commonality in a campaign are completely subjective.
Take a Level 1 Commoner of each race (in the PHB and this thread) with 10-average-stats, and stick them up against every CR 1 or less critter in the MM (and include the Eberron monsters too, sure), and the two do not come out equally.
This isn't judging it before it is seen -- I see it, it's the preview right in front of me. And now I can judge it. I'm not judging Eberron, I'm saying the race in this preview seems too powerful for +0 ECL. If you don't think so, defend the position (like those who defended the feat did) instead of trying to paint the opposition as ignorant.
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Gez
First Post
A level 1 commoner of an ECL 0 race is CR ½, not CR 1.
I'm not sure the Warforged is really overpowered. Being a construct, it has lots of immunities granted by its very nature. WotC have even been a long way to shaft it, making it a living construct. In effect, inventing a new category of creatures just to remove some construct immunities (mind-affecting effects, critical hits, etc.).
They may be immune to poisons and diseases (which seems normal), but they're vulnerable to, say, corrosion. They should definitely not be immune to rust monsters (and if you see something that says otherwise, don't believe it). In a world with plenty of golems, it would be expected that some people come up with control construct spells that would affect a warforged but not his carbon-based buddies.
And biological diseases could be replaced by artificial diseases to which they would not be immune, but biological people would. Think of computer viruses, an artificial plague designed by saboteurs.
I'm not sure the Warforged is really overpowered. Being a construct, it has lots of immunities granted by its very nature. WotC have even been a long way to shaft it, making it a living construct. In effect, inventing a new category of creatures just to remove some construct immunities (mind-affecting effects, critical hits, etc.).
They may be immune to poisons and diseases (which seems normal), but they're vulnerable to, say, corrosion. They should definitely not be immune to rust monsters (and if you see something that says otherwise, don't believe it). In a world with plenty of golems, it would be expected that some people come up with control construct spells that would affect a warforged but not his carbon-based buddies.
And biological diseases could be replaced by artificial diseases to which they would not be immune, but biological people would. Think of computer viruses, an artificial plague designed by saboteurs.
Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
So far I'm very pleased with the setting and not at all worried about power creep.
If anything I am more worried about complexity creep. The artificer strikes me as difficult as do the shifters and dragonmarked.
But so far I am loving the way the world comes together overall. Dragonmarked might make difficult characters, but dragonmarked houses make a fantastic addition to the world.
hmm, maybe a little bit worried about druid power creep, but much happier with the way they limit druid options for animal companions.
The warforged seem all right, though I do think it's interesting that any new ones can only come from some very specific places.
Gives your players a higher threshold to hit when justifying their backgrounds and choices.
If anything I am more worried about complexity creep. The artificer strikes me as difficult as do the shifters and dragonmarked.
But so far I am loving the way the world comes together overall. Dragonmarked might make difficult characters, but dragonmarked houses make a fantastic addition to the world.
hmm, maybe a little bit worried about druid power creep, but much happier with the way they limit druid options for animal companions.
The warforged seem all right, though I do think it's interesting that any new ones can only come from some very specific places.
Gives your players a higher threshold to hit when justifying their backgrounds and choices.
Anax
First Post
Warforged, in fact, take damage from rust monsters. They're also subject to rusting grasp, and effects that can hedge out wood or metal, and heat metal and chill metal both hurt them as if they were wearing armor. Luckily for them, warp wood and similar effects only work on objects.
After looking at it seriously, I think it's quite reasonable. The need to take feats to get better armor is in many ways a *disadvantage* more than it is an advantage. And it can only be done at first level. So at character creation time, you need to decide what kind of armor your character will wear for its whole career. You have to use your single first level feat to get this (unless you're a fighter). If you want more improvements later, you need to spend more feats. You can never wear armor or robes picked up as loot. You can have yourself enchanted, but once you're enchanted you're stuck with the result--you can't sell off that armor to buy new armor that you like better.
Somebody said of the Adamantine Body feat that it prevents spells of the healing subschool from working on you at all: this is incorrect. The Adamantine Body feat does not impact healing. The Improved Fortification feat, which provides immunity to critical hits, *does* make healing subschool spells no longer work--only repair spells and repair skills will work after this.
As for the healing issue being a drain on the whole party: This is true. But you can think of any weaknesses in a class this way. It's a drain on the whole party that the wizard has to be carefully protected from melee combat. Or that the fighter needs buff spells from the cleric to do extra super well in combat. Or that the cleric has less powerful offensive spells than the wizard, forcing the wizard to use his valuable spell slots up when maybe he really wants to cast lots of divination spells.
Anyway, here's a pretty complete rundown of the Warforged, as in the ECS book (not the dragon article). I include this so we can be sure we're all on the same page--I wouldn't be at all surprised if the dragon article doesn't match what was finally published, though I haven't checked.
- Has a Con score
- No low-light or darkvision
- Not immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities
- Immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition, energy drain.
- Cannot heal damage naturally
- Subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, stunning, ability damage, ability drain, and death effects or necromancy effects
- Can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as those that target constreucts. (cure light wounds works, so does repair light damage. disable construct and harm both work.) Schools from the healing subschool that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effect.
- Vulnerable to some spells because of construction: heat metal, chill metal, repel metal or stone, repel wood work. Rusting grasp does 2d6 damage. Rust monster does 2d6 damage (DC 17, reflex half). Stone to flesh, stone shape, warp wood, wood shape don't work (object only spells).
- Can't drop from 0 to -1 from strenuous activity. Can only perform a single move or standard in a round if at 0. When drop between -1 and -10, shuts down, but does not bleed out. (Since warforged can't heal naturally, and don't bleed out, I can imagine a warforged or group of warforged sitting somewhere shut down, only awaiting repairs to come back to life.)
- Can be raised or resurrected.
- No need to eat, sleep, or breathe, but can still benefit from consumable spells and magic items.
- Wizards must rest 8 hours, even though warforged don't need sleep.
- +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
- Medium
- 30 feet base speed
- Basic armor provides +2 armor bonus (not natural armor bonus), can't wear armor or robes. Can be enchanted. 5% spell failure chance. Feats at first level can improve to different types of armor, but include the penalties as well as the benefits of higher armor. Basic armor penalty can be ignored if you have a class ability that lets you ignore penalties from light armor, but otherwise counts as unarmored (so you can be a monk or other class that is not allowed metal armor.)
- Light Fortification: 25% chance of sneak attack or critical hit damage doesn't stick.
- Natural weapon: slam for 1d4.
- Favored class: fighter.
As for the feats:
First level only:
Adamantine Body: Heavy armor (with penalties, including movement speed), AC +8 armor, DR 2/adamantine.
Mithral Body: Medium armor (with penalties), AC +5 armor.
Later levels:
Improved DR: Gain DR 1/adamantine or improve DR /adamantine by 1. Can be taken more than once, and stacks.
Improved Fortification: Requires BAB 6+. Immunity to crits and sneak attacks, but also to healing subschool spells.
Mithral Fluidity: Requires Mithral Body. Improve max dex bonus, armor check penalty. Can be taken more than once, and stacks. AC penalty cannot go below 0.
After looking at it seriously, I think it's quite reasonable. The need to take feats to get better armor is in many ways a *disadvantage* more than it is an advantage. And it can only be done at first level. So at character creation time, you need to decide what kind of armor your character will wear for its whole career. You have to use your single first level feat to get this (unless you're a fighter). If you want more improvements later, you need to spend more feats. You can never wear armor or robes picked up as loot. You can have yourself enchanted, but once you're enchanted you're stuck with the result--you can't sell off that armor to buy new armor that you like better.
Somebody said of the Adamantine Body feat that it prevents spells of the healing subschool from working on you at all: this is incorrect. The Adamantine Body feat does not impact healing. The Improved Fortification feat, which provides immunity to critical hits, *does* make healing subschool spells no longer work--only repair spells and repair skills will work after this.
As for the healing issue being a drain on the whole party: This is true. But you can think of any weaknesses in a class this way. It's a drain on the whole party that the wizard has to be carefully protected from melee combat. Or that the fighter needs buff spells from the cleric to do extra super well in combat. Or that the cleric has less powerful offensive spells than the wizard, forcing the wizard to use his valuable spell slots up when maybe he really wants to cast lots of divination spells.
Anyway, here's a pretty complete rundown of the Warforged, as in the ECS book (not the dragon article). I include this so we can be sure we're all on the same page--I wouldn't be at all surprised if the dragon article doesn't match what was finally published, though I haven't checked.
- Has a Con score
- No low-light or darkvision
- Not immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities
- Immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition, energy drain.
- Cannot heal damage naturally
- Subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, stunning, ability damage, ability drain, and death effects or necromancy effects
- Can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as those that target constreucts. (cure light wounds works, so does repair light damage. disable construct and harm both work.) Schools from the healing subschool that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effect.
- Vulnerable to some spells because of construction: heat metal, chill metal, repel metal or stone, repel wood work. Rusting grasp does 2d6 damage. Rust monster does 2d6 damage (DC 17, reflex half). Stone to flesh, stone shape, warp wood, wood shape don't work (object only spells).
- Can't drop from 0 to -1 from strenuous activity. Can only perform a single move or standard in a round if at 0. When drop between -1 and -10, shuts down, but does not bleed out. (Since warforged can't heal naturally, and don't bleed out, I can imagine a warforged or group of warforged sitting somewhere shut down, only awaiting repairs to come back to life.)
- Can be raised or resurrected.
- No need to eat, sleep, or breathe, but can still benefit from consumable spells and magic items.
- Wizards must rest 8 hours, even though warforged don't need sleep.
- +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
- Medium
- 30 feet base speed
- Basic armor provides +2 armor bonus (not natural armor bonus), can't wear armor or robes. Can be enchanted. 5% spell failure chance. Feats at first level can improve to different types of armor, but include the penalties as well as the benefits of higher armor. Basic armor penalty can be ignored if you have a class ability that lets you ignore penalties from light armor, but otherwise counts as unarmored (so you can be a monk or other class that is not allowed metal armor.)
- Light Fortification: 25% chance of sneak attack or critical hit damage doesn't stick.
- Natural weapon: slam for 1d4.
- Favored class: fighter.
As for the feats:
First level only:
Adamantine Body: Heavy armor (with penalties, including movement speed), AC +8 armor, DR 2/adamantine.
Mithral Body: Medium armor (with penalties), AC +5 armor.
Later levels:
Improved DR: Gain DR 1/adamantine or improve DR /adamantine by 1. Can be taken more than once, and stacks.
Improved Fortification: Requires BAB 6+. Immunity to crits and sneak attacks, but also to healing subschool spells.
Mithral Fluidity: Requires Mithral Body. Improve max dex bonus, armor check penalty. Can be taken more than once, and stacks. AC penalty cannot go below 0.
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frankthedm
First Post
Avatar of the North said:
Incorrect! lousy attempt at rules hosing defeated
Heinrich_Uberlich
First Post
Had to reply to this post.
I find it amusing that most posters (who are probably DMs) are so 'worried' about the warforged race
I'll say this once. Any DM who cannot take out an uber character without cheating, fudging dice rolls etc should hang up there DMs screen.
Show me any race, any class, any character and given some time, I can come up with a totally fair way of taking that character out.
Not that I am condoning DMs going out of their way to kill of characters. In fact I try and give my players' character every advantage so they can live longer and most importantly of all, the campaign can LAST LONGER. Too many games of mine in the past have ended from TPKs.
I am planing to run Eberron and I will allow a warforged character. I may roll up characters for the players and introduce them that way to the setting. Allows the mystery of the world to be revealed slowly rather than handing them the rulebook.
As for the warforge themselves, I don't think anyone has mentioned the most important disadvantage of the race (unless I am mistaken) their incredible weight?! Surely these metal beings must weigh a ton! Just think of the ways this could throw a spanner in the works (pun intended) for the warforged.
- On a ship sailing across the ocean. Warforged falls overboard. Warforged sinks. Warforged sinks to the bottom of the ocean. Warforged crushed by
ocean depths' pressure.
- Warforged goes unconcious in battle. Party out of spells. Too many monsters. Party cannot lift warforged. Party flees. Warforged killed by monsters.
- Party crosses rickety rope bridge. Warforge crosses rickety rope bridge. Rope bridge snaps. Warforge falls. Warforge not immune to falling damage. Warforge go splat.
Anyone got any other ideas?
I find it amusing that most posters (who are probably DMs) are so 'worried' about the warforged race
I'll say this once. Any DM who cannot take out an uber character without cheating, fudging dice rolls etc should hang up there DMs screen.
Show me any race, any class, any character and given some time, I can come up with a totally fair way of taking that character out.
Not that I am condoning DMs going out of their way to kill of characters. In fact I try and give my players' character every advantage so they can live longer and most importantly of all, the campaign can LAST LONGER. Too many games of mine in the past have ended from TPKs.
I am planing to run Eberron and I will allow a warforged character. I may roll up characters for the players and introduce them that way to the setting. Allows the mystery of the world to be revealed slowly rather than handing them the rulebook.
As for the warforge themselves, I don't think anyone has mentioned the most important disadvantage of the race (unless I am mistaken) their incredible weight?! Surely these metal beings must weigh a ton! Just think of the ways this could throw a spanner in the works (pun intended) for the warforged.
- On a ship sailing across the ocean. Warforged falls overboard. Warforged sinks. Warforged sinks to the bottom of the ocean. Warforged crushed by
ocean depths' pressure.
- Warforged goes unconcious in battle. Party out of spells. Too many monsters. Party cannot lift warforged. Party flees. Warforged killed by monsters.
- Party crosses rickety rope bridge. Warforge crosses rickety rope bridge. Rope bridge snaps. Warforge falls. Warforge not immune to falling damage. Warforge go splat.
Anyone got any other ideas?
Tarril Wolfeye
First Post
Here's Height and Weight for Warforged:
Height: 5'10" +2d6, Weight: 270 lbs. + (height-mod. x4 lbs.)
This means warforged weight ranges from 278 lbs. up to 318 lbs.
Okay, it's heavy, but not extremely so.
From a logical standpoint, I just can't see how they are immune to energy drain, but NOT to ability drain or death effects/necromantic effects. I can accept immunity to paralysis as a bodily effect, but there should be a difference between bodily paralysis and paralysis coming from the mind like hold person (Will Save anyone?)
Height: 5'10" +2d6, Weight: 270 lbs. + (height-mod. x4 lbs.)
This means warforged weight ranges from 278 lbs. up to 318 lbs.
Okay, it's heavy, but not extremely so.
From a logical standpoint, I just can't see how they are immune to energy drain, but NOT to ability drain or death effects/necromantic effects. I can accept immunity to paralysis as a bodily effect, but there should be a difference between bodily paralysis and paralysis coming from the mind like hold person (Will Save anyone?)
Heinrich_Uberlich
First Post
318lbs! Is that all?!
Have they (WOTC) released an ecology of warforged? What are they made of? Flesh wrapped in steel? Do they bleed? The warforge on the cover of the book looks HUGE, like frikken Ironman! Surely they would weigh as much as say, Marvel mutant Colossus?
I think my original plan of revealing the Ebberron setting to my players slowly will go ahead and I may make some minor adjustments to the Warforged.
HU
Have they (WOTC) released an ecology of warforged? What are they made of? Flesh wrapped in steel? Do they bleed? The warforge on the cover of the book looks HUGE, like frikken Ironman! Surely they would weigh as much as say, Marvel mutant Colossus?
I think my original plan of revealing the Ebberron setting to my players slowly will go ahead and I may make some minor adjustments to the Warforged.
HU
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