Eberron - things to watch out for?

[El Ravager]

More correctly it includes A statblock for the lord of blades. Earlier comments by Kieth Baker indicate that the design team intend to put out a few conflicting statblocks for DM's to pick and choose from to maintain the Lord of Blades as a mystery of the setting that players woudn't be able to know enough about to metagame or complain about a non-cannonical treatment.

Now that is really cool.

Honestly, everything I've read in this thread sounds cool. I've never really looked into Eberron and I've always had an opinion ranging from negative to 'meh' about it. But this thread is turning that around. I like what seems to be a commitment on the part of the authors to keep things a mystery. But it sounds like they don't take it too far -- they give you enough to work with so that you hav olenty to work with and it doesn't give you the feeling that they themselves just don't have a clue so they can't tell you. The Eberron CS may find itself as one of my next rpg purchases...


On Warforged, I've come to the conclusion that they are probably about where I feel 3.5 Dwarves are: A little more powerful than the other +0 races, but not enough to warrent a +1. Warforged push it a little further than dwarves do.

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El Rav

 

[Henry]

On Warforged, I've come to the conclusion that they are probably about where I feel 3.5 Dwarves are: A little more powerful than the other +0 races, but not enough to warrent a +1. Warforged push it a little further than dwarves do.

For another viewpoint on Warforged, I've seen a fully kitted Adamantium Body Warforged Fighter (with a dabbling of rogue and wizard) play in my Eberron game, with no problems. He did serve several handy functions with his immunities (I crafted a few situations where a poison-and suffocation-immune character was handy), and we never found a situation where he was clearly superior to the other PCs. Heck, he was the one who most often got smashed to pieces first in combat, because he was first in line and the enemy isolated him as a threat first to eliminate him.

An entire party of warforged might be a problem, because then you do close off some avenues of challenging the group, but by the converse a warforged is vulnerable to heat metal, rusting grasp, and inflict damage spells, whereas no one else except the party fighter is. If you priced the race as LA+1, I could see it, but I would give them an extra d8 hit die to compensate (I wouldn't give the bonus to STR, though).

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I hate racial HD with a passion, and I really think bonus HP should be limited to characters that lack Constitution scores.

Is your objection to giving the Strength bonus and the d8 hit points, or to giving the Strength bonus at all?

 

[Desdichado]

But look at what you're getting in exchange for a Feat and 1 Skill Point Per Level.

We did. And our conclusion was still that the Warforged was a tad on the underpowered side. You conveniently left off the unique vulnerabilities of the Warforged in your list.

 

[Corsair]

Also, READ THE ERRATA.

Specifically: Syberis Mark of Making, Talenta Sharrash

 

[Wycen]

Could you tell me?

If the others haven't answered for me, do you still have a question? I was just using those 2 instances as example of mysteries I think keep the setting flavorful. What happened to the Mournlands would be another.

 

[Henry]

Is your objection to giving the Strength bonus and the d8 hit points, or to giving the Strength bonus at all?

I wouldn't give the STR bonus regardless, because the race is not described as STRONGER than humans, only more durable. Their immunity to fatigue and exhaustion would sufficiently portray the "strength" that people ascribe to them.

As for racial hit dice, if someone insisted on LA +1, I'd strongly suggest the racial hit dice, because it does very little other than to boost survivability. LA+1 races need to be rather capable to make up for the loss of level that this offers, and their passive resistances rather than active attributes, in my experience, do NOT make them more capable than the other party members.

I'd rather start a whole other thread on warforged capabilities than continue it and destroy this Eberron thread, though. Or better yet, find an already existing thread and continue it, because it's been rather thoroughly discussed over the past year.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

EDIT: Sorry, O August Administrator, started this post something like two hours before I posted it. Had to run to the store. Not to derail the thread, just expressing that this race is something I think is a big "issue" to keep in mind when dealing with Eberron.

We did. And our conclusion was still that the Warforged was a tad on the underpowered side. You conveniently left off the unique vulnerabilities of the Warforged in your list.

Alright, I'll address those as well:

• Damage from Heat and Chill Metal (But so are any warrior-types, even most light armor types because Chain Shirt is superior armor, etc). So really, only the Warforged Wizard is going to see much of a change in his vulnerability.
• Affected by Repel Metal or Repel Stone. (See above)
• Repelled by Repel Wood (This one is a change of pace for most folks, who can drop their wooden-hafted weapons. It's also a 6th level Druid spell.)
• Damage from Rusting Grasp (not as bad as the spell's effects on "Ferrous Creatures", it becomes a 4th level spell slot which is less effective than an Inflict Light Wounds spell cast by a 5th level caster)
• Affected by a Rust Monster (at low levels I'm pretty sure most warriors would vote to take 2d6 Save-for-half from a rust monster than lose their mastercraft items, but it's a true vulnerability that others don't suffer from.)
• They're the targets of some specialized spells ... these spells translate out to Inflict X and Harm for constructs, mostly, so it's a bit of a wash, and alot of those spells are Artificer-only.
• Arcane casters get a 5% spell failure because they all start with the equivalent of Leather armor.

All of those are really flavorful, and I think they're cool, but they're not much in the way of a real change from flesh-and-blood races. In the case of Repel and Heat Metal, the only CLASS that will see much difference is going to be an arcane caster. The new spells are, to me, a complex wash ... they mirror Divine spells of the same general type, meaning that Warforged get HEALED by Arcane and Divine casters and can be HARMED by Arcane and Divine casters ... so they're 1.5x more affected by those sorts of spells, for good AND ill. That's not a disadvantage, it's just a change.

Warforged get a few more bonuses that I didn't list.

• Adamantine Body ... Adamantine Full Plate at 1st level for a feat? Yes please. (Though DR2 instead of 3, but we can improve that with feats.)
• Don't lose HP for performing actions at 0hp
• No need for stabilization
• No need to eat or sleep ... while not horribly mechanical bonuses, they can be handy.

Armor is restricted at the first few levels due to cost considerations, which Warforged largely ignore, getting Leather for free or trading it for Mithril Breastplate or Adamantine Full Plate with respective 1st-level feats. This is restrictive, but really all they're losing is Mithril/Non-Mithril Chain Shirt in the "Best Armors Per Type" rundown. Adamantine Full Plate is a 16,650gp item. Because it loses a point of DR, the Adamantine cost table would roughly class it as a 11,650gp item. Where-as, at 1st level, the human fighter will most likely be running Scale Mail due to cost considerations. The Warforged warrior-type will HAVE to spend that 1st feat on Mithril or Adamantine body, which reduces his early-game choices ... but I'm sure if I said: "You can have Power Attack at 1st level ... or Adamantine Full Plate"...

Plus there's no weight to these armors, which is a big consideration if you track encumbrance (which I do), especially for weaker Rogue types ... usually their Leather armor is the heaviest thing they've got on them. I just spent some time fine-tuning a few pre-gen 1st level characters and the hard choices for the rogue and the bard was stripping out enough weight to carry gear.

Dwarf is probably your best-buy out of the Core PHB, by a slim-ish margin (tenths of a CR) but the Warforged far and away outstrips Dwarf.

For me its one of the stickiest parts of Eberron for me. LA races suck (I had a thread going about that a few weeks ago) but at the same time, Warforged have SO many special powers that they're a power bloat. They make every other race worse by comparison. The LA races look even WORSE than they do now because here's a non-LA race that's just as powerful. The base races look worse because here's a non-LA race that's more powerful than they are.

I'm not saying they should be LA, but that's not because I don't think they're powerful enough, it's because I don't think LA works. It makes races all but unplayable, and would do the same to Warforged.

I'm just saying it's a big something to keep in mind. When the 1st level Warfoged Fighter walks out of the river on the opposite bank with his Adamantine Body gleaming in the sun while the Human Fighter 1 slowly drowns in his Scale Mail ... You'll know ahead of time not to have a water hazard on the field.

--fje

 

[Staffan]

For example in my campaign the Lord of Blades is not "one" person.

So, the Dread Lord of Blades, is he?

 

[Geoff Watson]

[*]Adamantine Body ... Adamantine Full Plate at 1st level for a feat? Yes please. (Though DR2 instead of 3, but we can improve that with feats.)

Armor is restricted at the first few levels due to cost considerations, which Warforged largely ignore, getting Leather for free or trading it for Mithril Breastplate or Adamantine Full Plate with respective 1st-level feats. This is restrictive, but really all they're losing is Mithril/Non-Mithril Chain Shirt in the "Best Armors Per Type" rundown. Adamantine Full Plate is a 16,650gp item. Because it loses a point of DR, the Adamantine cost table would roughly class it as a 11,650gp item. Where-as, at 1st level, the human fighter will most likely be running Scale Mail due to cost considerations. The Warforged warrior-type will HAVE to spend that 1st feat on Mithril or Adamantine body, which reduces his early-game choices ... but I'm sure if I said: "You can have Power Attack at 1st level ... or Adamantine Full Plate"...

Plus there's no weight to these armors, which is a big consideration if you track encumbrance (which I do), especially for weaker Rogue types ... usually their Leather armor is the heaviest thing they've got on them. I just spent some time fine-tuning a few pre-gen 1st level characters and the hard choices for the rogue and the bard was stripping out enough weight to carry gear.

Dwarf is probably your best-buy out of the Core PHB, by a slim-ish margin (tenths of a CR) but the Warforged far and away outstrips Dwarf.

For me its one of the stickiest parts of Eberron for me. LA races suck (I had a thread going about that a few weeks ago) but at the same time, Warforged have SO many special powers that they're a power bloat. They make every other race worse by comparison. The LA races look even WORSE than they do now because here's a non-LA race that's just as powerful. The base races look worse because here's a non-LA race that's more powerful than they are.

I'm not saying they should be LA, but that's not because I don't think they're powerful enough, it's because I don't think LA works. It makes races all but unplayable, and would do the same to Warforged.

I'm just saying it's a big something to keep in mind. When the 1st level Warfoged Fighter walks out of the river on the opposite bank with his Adamantine Body gleaming in the sun while the Human Fighter 1 slowly drowns in his Scale Mail ... You'll know ahead of time not to have a water hazard on the field.

--fje

The * Body feats are a disadvantage for Warforged. It's the only way for them to get decent armour, and costs them a feat.
Other races can just spend some money or loot armour from defeated foes.

Adamantine Body is great at first level. OK at third level when other fighters have full plate, and mediocre at high levels.

Geoff.