ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.

[Jasperak]

I have no problem with playtesting; quite the contrary playtesting is a must. Unfortuntely, it has been several days now and all we have is one ogre in one campaign. In a hypothetical situation, if all of this could be boiled down to simple equations, one would rather have a million tests as opposed to a handful.

Look at it from the game design point of view. How long do you think these guys have been testing the material that will appear in Tooth & Claw? A year? Maybe two? And how many of these creatures do you think they play tested? Twenty? A hundred?

If there was a baseline to start with, then it would be much easier to test when all you have to do is add the human variable into the equation. Now I will be the first one to say an equation could not give us what we are looking for, but it will get us closer. If I am going to pay these guys for something, I do not want to question their design choices; I want to feel confortable with their decisions, but so far, I have seen everything that runs the gammit from vastly underpowered to pure munchkin. These boards are fillled with it. Yuk.

I would rather wait a year to insure that we get the most balanced system that we can (of course it can't be perfect; part of the fun is finding the best combinations.)

The problem with not having a standard way of looking at the system is that everyone sees differently, meaning for example the ogre's ECL. Some are happy with it at eight, some are happy with it at five. Those three levels can mean a great deal.

Taking Ghorgor for example, just wait until his hit point differential comes up smack in the face of a CR10 dragon's breath weapon. Without looking at his stats, I would still think that those 16 hit points + con bonus for the extra three levels would even the playing field. He may even survive the initial onslaught to use the strengths he excels in. Do not get me wrong, I am only using a three level difference as an example.

That is why it is so important to get these things right, the first time, without web errata. If a systematic way can be done to show how the different classes stack up against each other, so to can one show how different monster races compare. If we go by instinct, we will not be able to have a balanced system for very long, any body here 2e calling? I do not want another Sword & Fist, or hospitaller PrC.

Wizards HAS to lead by example. They need to demonstrate that they have a complete grasp of their rules. If their escape is, just add three to the ECL, because they cannot nor will not find the true balance, then to heck with them.

I want balance. I want to trust the system. A system that with a few hiccups is IMHO the best. I want it to stay that way. If I have to tweek a little here or there fine, but I will never have a troll fig1 with a party of 14th level characters. (Troll ECL is 13 right?) I would prefer charts to go on, based upon campaign strength, and I would rather they let me choose what I want the ECL to be rather than give me a number I cannot trust.

BTW, a game of numbers that does not have a system is broken. Simple equation, heck no, but there should be a way. Don't pull a T$R on me. If they do not have a plan, the system will break.

Sorry{/rant}

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Guidelines and chart that help determine ECL would be useful for those rare and exotic monsters that won't be included in T&C.

Frankly, I'd be surprised if the designers didn't adress the question of evaluating ECL. It would be a pretty glaring omission.

But these guidelines need to be ultraconservative. I fully agree with those who say that it's easier to tone up than tone down.

For example, if I decided that Ghorgor might be better balanced as ECL 7, I could simply go ahead and do that. I'd just have to reduce by 1,000 XP the amount necessary to reach next level and given FR method of XP distribution, he'd smoothly catch up 1 level over his teammate in short order.

If I had to raise his ECL by 1 point (or more!) instead, then his progression could slow down to a crawl while the others are cathcing up. This could be legitimately annoying to a player; it isn't his fault that you let his PC become too powerful. Now he's stuck with a PC that won't improve for much longer than is usual for your campaign.

It's the same thing as for magic items; it's easier and more fun for the players if you arrange for them to find powerful items once in a while, when you think they need a boost, than it is to strip them of uberitems you find disruptive but that you allowed in the first place.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Jasperak,

You seem to be assuming that it is possible to develop such a formula. I am quite certain that it is completely impossible.

Sure, you could print one. But it would fail constantly.

You want them to do something that is virtually impossible AND you want it with no errata???? Heck, they can't do that with the core races.

I disagree that a formula would get you closer. It would send you off on a wild goose chase.

The troll you mentioned is a good example. (ECL only 11 btw, not that it really changes the debate) What is Regen 5 worth? Well if you only have a few or no bonus HD, it may be worth nothing, but add in a bunch of hit points and now you heal completely after every battle. What is that worth?

Wouldn't you agree that having Fire Resistance 20 and a Troll style regenration would be vastly more valuable than the sum of the two individually?

As to a Troll with one level in a party, that is always going to be the weakest point. The same goes for an ogre in a L9 party. As level go up, the lost hit points and BAB become less of a significant factor. Would a troll Fighter 6 fit in a L17 party? maybe. Would a troll F1 really fit in a party below L10? I doubt it. I would consider it difficult to play a FR deep gnome in a level 4 party. That does not make +3 ECL to low, it just means deep gnomes are not ideal choices until you get a little higher in level.


But with the troll:
I use my 30 STR and Large size to grapple the enemy fighter and leap off the cliff. We both fall for 70 points of damage. Of course mine is all subdual and will heal in 2 minutes. Or I just hold him down and let the party slaughter him, who cares if they hit me a couple times.

 

[Jasperak]

Axiomatic,

That is my whole point, they are going to try and force something into a system that from level 1 to level 20 cannot keep it balanced. Trying to plug new rules into a system that will work at one level (high) but not at another (low-mid) is poor planning on their part.

I can imagine a group of designers sitting around a table saying,
"Yeah lets give the Ogre an ECL+5"
"But what about when all the characters are 10th level?"
"Oh, I see that, well then lets make it ECL+8"
"But what about when they are all 20th level and the ogre fighter now is only behind by 8 levels in feats? He's got 12 fighter levels worth of feats!"
"Well then lets make it's ECL+14. That should make the ogre just a little less powerful."

See my point, because of the inherent differences in the races, as the monsters gain more and more levels their power will increase, for lack of a better term, exponentially compared to the standard races linearly(sp?).

I know this does not denfend what I said earlier, but I am not trying to. We are now discussing just another facet to this situation.

I forgot to reply to your much earlier comment... You are 100% correct when you said just because one ability is worth A and another ability is worth B, that when you add both abilities their worth will be greater than A+B. Of that there is no doubt.

With all of this discussion, I am beginning to wonder if it would be advisable to try and come up with rules like they are. Now for 1HD creatures with smaller powers like Aasimar, Tieflings, or Drow, this might be useful. But for Ogres, Trolls, etc... When an Ogre with an ECL+8 in a party of 10th level characters is weak, I think the same Ogre in a party of 20th level characters will be more powerful. Maybe every race should get their own xp chart to scale their power with the standard races.

The whole idea is balance. Why should we waste our time discussing the ECLs of Ogres the numbers we come up with for one level do not hold up at another.

They made a game that unlike its predecessor doesn't appear broken at higher levels, but yet now they are adding something that could potentially do that. Cannot wait for epic levels to come out... Ah damn, my 30th epic level character died, oh well I guess I will make an Ogre with 22 levels. Just imagine that character Maybe the Epic stuff will narrow the power gap by slowing it, but I would think that to keep characters going that long and longer, well I would rather not speculate.

BTW I love your troll idea... they normally guard bridges right
Bad DM, Bad DM. /me puts on thinking cap.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Hey, 2 other advantages to being Large occured to me;

1-Mounted Warriors don't get high ground advantage against you.

2-You can overrun with ease. Assuming you are willing to take the AoO(s), it's hard to stop you from charging through enemy lines in order to get to weaker and/or more important targets.

Neither are very useful currently in the campaign, but in a few sessions the PCs are going into war/guerilla (on the side of Unther against Mulhorand), so this might become more useful.

Also, in a war there are war wizards. Ghorgor is about to come under magical firepower and it'll be interesting to see the results.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Jasperak,

I agree.

I will give them a break an only expect the system to be close for levels up to 20. So it is only weird things like regen or lots of spell-like abilities that would be hard to balance. I think the ogre is ok, moreso than the troll.

But ultimately the DM is going to be forced to make choices about the balance of his game, basically on a session by session basis. Having a weird character can be fun enough to justify a little extra work. If the ogre seems a bit weak, you throw an extra level at him, if him outshines the humans, you hold him back.

 

[Aloïsius]

A few thing I have to say :

* It's not easiest to lower an ECL if it's too high than to increase it during play if it was too low : if it was too low and you raise it, your PC will have to wait a few more session. If it was too high, his character is simply dead. Even if you resurect him, he will loose another level. (I used to play character with ECL : a half-celestial halfling bard and a elven Shade sorcerer. They have been killed, and, being spellcaster with ECL, they were useless for the party)

*In Mal Campaign, you compare an optimized ogre with an non-optimal fighter.
Here are two standard character, using 25 point buy (in fact I use the table in the DMG), standard rule.. One is an ogre (ECL +8) fighter 1. The other is a human fighter 9. Remember that stats with modifier lower than -2 use a specific table page 23 of the DMG, giving an higher charisma to the ogre. Equipement is for a 8th level NPC.

Ogre Fighter 1:
Str 25 Dex 11 Con 18 Int 6 Wis 12 Cha 6
HD : 4d8 + 16 ( 42 hp) +1d 10 +8 (18hp) total : 60 hp
AC : 26 (+9 full plate+1; +3 large metal shield +1; +5 natural ; -1 size). Touch 9
Attack : +12 (greatsword +1), or +4 mighty(16) huge composite masterwork longbow
Damage : 2d6 + 8 greatsword or 2d6 +3 huge longbow
Feats : Weapon focus greatsword
Fort : +10 Ref : +1 Will : +2
Skills points : 4.

Human Fighter 9 :
Str 17 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 8
HD 9d10 + 18 (28 + 44 = 72 hp)
AC : 20 (+1 dex, +9 full plate +1 ) Touch 11
Attacks : +14 +9 spiked chain +1 or +12/+7 mighty (16) composite masterwork longbow
Damage : 2d4 + 7 spiked chain or 1d8+3 longbow
Feats: Exotic weapon profeciency spiked chain. Weapon focus spiked chain. Weapon specialisation spiked chain. Dodge. Mobility. Spring Attack. Combat reflexe. Improved disarm. Improved trip. Expertise.
Fort : +9 Ref +6 Will +4
Skill points : 36.

So what : at first glance :
HD : advantage to human, in regard of spells like cloudkill, or sleep.
HP : little advantage to human.
AC : advantage to ogre, but touch AC is better for human.
Attacks : advantage to human.
Damage : advantage to ogre
Feat : no comment.
Saves : avantage to human.
Skills : avantage to human.
Reach : advantage to ogre, but not so great (spiked chain)
Grapple : advantage to ogre. Remember escape artist is cross-class for fighter.
Disarm : advantage to ogre, but not so great (spiked chain)
Speed : advantage to ogre (I think)
Miscellaneous : Ogre equipement is far more expensive. He requier a lot more food. He will have a hard time in social encounter (try to find a bed the appropriate size in the Inn...). He will often be shoot on sight. Mount for ogre are very rare, at least (a bulette ?). If wounded and disabled, his comrade won't be able to pick him. He will be able to lift and carry more stuff than his human counterpart.

So it looks overall balanced at EL 8 ? I think not. Not at all. Suppose you have a wizard in the party, it could happen, right ? He will be level 9, right ? Thus he will know at least 4 4th level spells, right ? What if one of this spell is Polymorph Other ? Simple. Here will be the new stats of our two EL9 fighter.

Ogre ( same as above, I haven't found any form in the MM, with 9 HD or less, that gave him a new advantage. If there is one, please post. Being polymorphed in a troll will make him lose str.)

Human (polymorphed into Troll)
Str 23 Dex 14 Con 23 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 8
HP and HD : same as above.
AC : 26 (+1 dex, +9 full plate +1 - 1 size +7 nat) Touch 10
Attacks : +16 +11 huge spiked chain +1 or +11/+6 huge mighty (16) composite masterwork longbow
Damage : 2d6 + 9 spiked chain or 2d6+3 huge longbow
Fort : +13 Ref +6 Will +4

Just cast dispel magic before entering the town.

Now, Human is better everywhere. EL +8 means that you will have level 8 spellcaster in the party, when you are only level 1. A wizard 8 is able to undo all your advantage by giving the same to the party fighter. And don't hope a revanche by being able later to be polymorphed into a Huge giant : they have more than 15 HD...So you will have to wait the polymorph any object spell, which will work for the small human, too.


*Even without the bloody polymorph thing, you have to consider spellcasters : any ECL creature will be badly inspired to become a spellcaster, I have playtested it.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Aloïsius,

Everything you have commented on has been addressed before.

One thread was closed because it got to long.

Try doing a search for it.

I agree that changing ECLs mid-stream is a bad idea. I did mention that above, but I really only meant it as a worst case scenario.

 

[MasterOfHeaven]

Alosius: Just a question, but are you implying that a Ogre shouldn't be ECL +8 because a Wizard can polymorph a Human into a Troll? But what happens when the Wizard isn't there, or doesn't have the spell, or is simply not willing to spend it?

And like you say, all it takes is a simple dispel magic spell and the polymorph other spell is gone. Do enemy mages/clerics never cast that spell in the campaigns you play?

Ogres look just about right at ECL+8 to me, and you admit as much in your post, but then claim it's not fair because of roleplaying rationalizations and one spell that may or may not be available and is easily dispelled.

 

[Xeovke]

Just curious,
Where can we find the latest polymorph self version?
is the one in the PsiHB errata up to date?
Thanks in advance,

Xeovke