ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.

Axiomatic Unicorn

First Post
whatisitgoodfor said:
*snickers*

The entire point of all of this is to discuss the new ECLs presented in the Dragon article, so those are the only ECLs that should be used.

Half-Dragons are now ECL +4, not 3.

You are correct. And on top of that, it has been pointed out before that the half-dragon template is probably the worst to try to pin an ECL on. The impact of the pros and cons vary greatly depending on the level at which you are playing.
 

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whatisitgoodfor

First Post
Aww, don't take it so badly Wippit. No one has even seen fit to respond to my attempt to further this discussion of the new ECLs.

Its sitting down at the bottom of this forum under "Mr. Chips' Adventures" (hint hint) :D
 


Mal Malenkirk

First Post
whatisitgoodfor said:
Aww, don't take it so badly Wippit. No one has even seen fit to respond to my attempt to further this discussion of the new ECLs. :D

I would love to, but I can't playtest everything! ;)

Seriously, if people want to discuss other specific ECL, either in theory or backed with gaming experience, be my guest.

I did post something about a troll and how ECL 11 seems reasonable, altough it's hard to evaluate the value of his regeneration without some hand on experience.
 

Mal Malenkirk

First Post
Wippit Guud said:
And why is that limited to just a half dragon. Can;t you say the same thing for an ogre?

To a lesser extent, yes.

Monsters were not designed with in mind the idea of making PCs out of them. ECL rules are a good guide to make such a thing workable, though.
 

Gez

First Post
My main problem with ECLs myself is that, as you know, it hurts some classes more than other. From least hurted to most hurted, we have Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, Rogue, Monk, Cleric, Druid, Psychic Warrior, Bard, Wizard, Psion, Sorcerer. (Rough estimate only, OK.)

Even if you play something which has innate spellcasting class levels (like, say, a Dragon) that stacks with your own class levels, you will miss greatly from the lost levels. For a purely fighting class, the lost levels can be made up by Strength, as demonstrated by Ghorgor (off-topic: Ghorgor Bey has a nose-ring of regeneration, IIRC). But when it comes as a trade-off between casting 3rd level spells and casting 5th level spells; the gap is harder to swallow.

My brother played a shade sorcerer shadow adept. With ECL +2. His character died, for lack of HD. And wasn't very effective, for lack of spells (the level penalty of the ECL, combined with the one of the sorcerer, is especially harsh). A normal human wizard of the same level would be two spell levels ahead -- and that's always a great boon, from 1st-vs.-3rd difference to a 7th-vs.-9th difference. Even worse, a druid reincarnated this character, and rolled a Centaur. So, now, this character has lost a level (for reincarnation), and has a worse ECL. Stealth -- the greatest strength of the character, after spellcasting -- is severely impaired. On the other hand, that PC can now run away really fast -- and that is how she adventure now.

(This raise also the problem of reincarnation and templates, do you keep them or do you lose them ? Some are obvious, any undead template is lost, for example, but for some other it's harder to say. But that's off-discussion here.)
 

Mal Malenkirk

First Post
Gez:

If you play a Rogue/Wizard, will the rogue levels hurt your spellcasting power? Of course it will. Multiclassing dilute your magical prowess. But you'll get something else out of the rogue levels that hopefully make up for it; your PC will be more flexible.

Same logic with an ECL race. It is the equivalent of "multiclassing" into a powerful race.

I would also add that just as being a Barbarian/Fighter doesn't hurt your melee prowess much, being an Ogre/Fighter doesn't really hurt either. It's not so much in the nature of ECL as in the nature of 3e : if you want powerful magic you need as many level in a single (primary) spellcasting class as you can manage.

I'm sorry to say that if you want to be the most powerful spellcaster of your party, there is no other choice but to play an ECL 0 race.

That doesn't mean that a Nixie Sorcerer (ECL 3) is a weak PC, for example.

Compared to a ECL 0 sorcerer, a Nixie has a lot of roguish skills, 1 more feat, much higher stats including +8 to charisma (!), a swim speed and water breathing and a free spell (charm person). Imagine it as being a Nixie 3/Sorcerer X
 
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Marshall

First Post
Re: Re: Re: Apologies

Axiomatic Unicorn said:


One: The game is designed to fit the core classes. If an new race exceeds the core races (especially in something as core to the game as combat) then it would be unbalanced at least, broken at worst.

It would only be unbalanced if it didn't impair another core feature, and I'm sorry but the mental attributes are a core feature. They also happen to be almost the entirety of the roleplaying aspect of the game.

Two: If I want to play a human who is simply, a great fighter, I should have that option. To have someone else jump in and get to play an Ogre AND be a better fighter than me would SUCK. Any fool DM who allows that may as well place a sign on the table: "Any player wanting to be the front line fighter, get your Ogre stats here."

So Half-Orcs are right out? Gee that +2 STR makes them a better fighter than a Human. Oh no, just ignore that -2 INT and -2 CHA they have no bearing on your awesome fighter abilities. :rolleyes:

There is nothing stopping a human from being a great fighter, but an Ogre will almost always be better. Why? Hes Bigger, Faster, and Stronger than a human is. 'Course the ogre will have ahard time winning a chess match with the human, wont comprehend the simplest of battle plans, scares away all the pretty barmaids...

The argument is the same, as long as you ignore the limits on the mental stats +8ECL is dead on. If you look at the whole of the character, its too high.

As to the ogre's thumb, it will only go where the player's brain leads.

Ah see, heres your problem. Its not the Players Brain, its an Ogre. If you allow your player with a 6 INT ogre to play like a 14-18 int super-genius than youve just ignore a mechanical restriction. Ogres are dumb-by-design, and if you put the points into those stats to make them less dumb, you shouldnt have the overpowering phys attributes that you point to as worth a +8.

Look at the big picture, an Ogre is +4 on attribute points, Large, and has 4hd. Thats worth 8 ECL?
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