ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.

[Marshall]

Seriously, if people want to discuss other specific ECL, either in theory or backed with gaming experience, be my guest.

Ok, lets look at Zombie

+5 ECL

for what?

So youre undead, so you stink.

YOU'RE PERMANENTLY SLOWED

Um yeah, thats much more valuable than the LICH template...

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Apologies

Its not the Players Brain, its an Ogre. If you allow your player with a 6 INT ogre to play like a 14-18 int super-genius than youve just ignore a mechanical restriction.Its not the Players Brain, its an Ogre. If you allow your player with a 6 INT ogre to play like a 14-18 int super-genius than youve just ignore a mechanical restriction.

Low INT means low skill points. That's the mechanical restriction.

As for roleplaying:

1-Do you consider that playing a smart PC is somehow worthier than playing a dumb one? That it should be valued higher and that ECL should take this into account? I think not. It can be just as fun to play dumb.

2-The ogre still has a normal WIS. Plenty of insight can come from him on the basis of that attribute without accusing the player of being out of character.

After all, is it intelligence or wisdom that help you realize you are being lied to? Yep, that's right: a "dumb" ogre is just as likely to realize you are trying to fool him as a normal human fighter.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Ok, lets look at Zombie

+5 ECL

That's a good one.

On the designer's defense they do note that you shouldn't play a Zombie because it has no INT and thus can't even get a class.

But even if we were to work around that, there is not much going in favor of the zombie. The undead immunities certainly don't warrant ECL 5, especially in the face of all the disadvantages.

All right, let's scratch the zombie as unplayable.

Anything else?

 

[Aloïsius]

*Sorry for the error : I started with a 8th level human fighter and a 0 ogre. I forget some of the change.
*The great advantage of the ogre is hit bonus damage : thus the greatsword : a huge spiked chain don't give him more reach. Check the Stinger in Monster of Faerun. So the two characters are optimized, as best as I can, giving the ogre a better AC with the shiel to compensate the lower HP.
*A lot of people argue that the ECL must be based on the most optimized scenario possible, thus ECL +8. Then they dismiss the polymorph, because it is not always disponible.
*Ennemy spellcaster can dispel a pomymorph, IF they know that there is something to dispel. Perhaps they have something better to do : a dispel magic won't deal great damage to anybody. A lightning bolt could.
*The latest errata for polymorph is in Tome and Blood.
*The extra-size of the Ogre don't give him access to a greater number of form : all these huge creature have more than 15 HD, and thus can't be assumed by polymorph.
*Polymorphing the ogre into a standard troll don't give him so many advantages : his strength will be lowered, and he will only gain a few natural AC, +2 reflex save and another bonus in Fort save.

If someone can make better sample benchmark at various level : do it! I don't have the time.

 

[Gez]

Gez:

If you play a Rogue/Wizard, will the rogue levels hurt your spellcasting power? Of course it will. Multiclassing dilute your magical prowess. But you'll get something else out of the rogue levels that hopefully make up for it; your PC will be more flexible.

Same logic with an ECL race. It is the equivalent of "multiclassing" into a powerful race.

I would also add that just as being a Barbarian/Fighter doesn't hurt your melee prowess much, being an Ogre/Fighter doesn't really hurt either. It's not so much in the nature of ECL as in the nature of 3e : if you want powerful magic you need as many level in a single (primary) spellcasting class as you can manage.

I'm sorry to say that if you want to be the most powerful spellcaster of your party, there is no other choice but to play an ECL 0 race.

That doesn't mean that a Nixie Sorcerer (ECL 3) is a weak PC, for example.

Compared to a ECL 0 sorcerer, a Nixie has a lot of roguish skills, 1 more feat, much higher stats including +8 to charisma (!), a swim speed and water breathing and a free spell (charm person). Imagine it as being a Nixie 3/Sorcerer X

Well, that's the problem. ECL is indeed like multiclass. If what you want is a SPELLCASTER, all ECL race are ripoffs. And you know, if what you want is to cast spells, you should never multiclass (except in continuing prestige classes). A fighter 5/barbarian 5 excel in his specialty (fighting). A cleric 5/wizard 5 suck in his specialty (casting spells).

This is mainly because of the way BAB stack, but not caster level...

What I said was not that the ECL wasn't fair re. multiclassing, just that ECL, like multiclassing, is not interesting for sheer magic. ECL races can only be for characters who are mainly fighter or maybe rogue. Spellcasting will always be minor, unless you reach ridiculously high levels.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

And why is that limited to just a half dragon. Can;t you say the same thing for an ogre?

To some degree it could be stated for anything. But in my experience the breath weapon and resistances make a big variation. Also the half-dragon gets big power boosts, but no extra hit dice. So at low levels they have a 1/day super weapon, but are very hard to keep alive, at higher levels the hit point issue becomes far less important and the breath weapon becomes less of a bonus. This sliding scale makes things difficult to assess.

Relatively speaking, the ogre has more of a flat bonus regardless of the level of play.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

It would only be unbalanced if it didn't impair another core feature, and I'm sorry but the mental attributes are a core feature. They also happen to be almost the entirety of the roleplaying aspect of the game.

Again with the roleplaying balances combat theory.....

The ogre should not exceed the core race in combat. period.
If you as a player don't want to accept the mental attributes, don't play an ogre. If you do want to accept the mental attributes as part of the concept, great, but don't expect combat bonuses for them.

So Half-Orcs are right out? Gee that +2 STR makes them a better fighter than a Human. Oh no, just ignore that -2 INT and -2 CHA they have no bearing on your awesome fighter abilities.

I'm not sure how putting false words in my mouth, that do not reflect anythign I said, changes the correct ECL of an ogre.

There is nothing stopping a human from being a great fighter, but an Ogre will almost always be better. Why? Hes Bigger, Faster, and Stronger than a human is. 'Course the ogre will have ahard time winning a chess match with the human, wont comprehend the simplest of battle plans, scares away all the pretty barmaids...

If this statment were correct, you would have no complaint.
But you are completely missing the point.
A human F9 is a better fighter than an ogre F1.
As it should be.
Pointing out that the ogre has more inherent combat advantages does nothing at all to advance the discussion.
The true question is, what amount of inherent race abilities PLUS class abilties for the ogre is fair for the core races.

The argument is the same, as long as you ignore the limits on the mental stats +8ECL is dead on. If you look at the whole of the character, its too high.

You have stated that several times.
You have yet to supported it. The few attempts you have made I have responded to.

Ah see, heres your problem. Its not the Players Brain, its an Ogre. If you allow your player with a 6 INT ogre to play like a 14-18 int super-genius than youve just ignore a mechanical restriction. Ogres are dumb-by-design, and if you put the points into those stats to make them less dumb, you shouldnt have the overpowering phys attributes that you point to as worth a +8.

Again you fail to understand. I never said anything to imply that the ogre would be smart.
Basically you have established two options:
A) outside of combat the ogre has his thumb in his butt or
B) the player unfairly plays the ogre as a super-genius

Call me silly, but I think there is some middle ground available.
There would be a vast variety of ways a low INT ogre could be involved in non-combat situations. But it will depend on the player's brain to establish fun ways to be involved while staying in character.

If you can't think of anything beyond sticking your thumb in your butt, perhaps you should not play an ogre.

Look at the big picture, an Ogre is +4 on attribute points, Large, and has 4hd. Thats worth 8 ECL?

Nope. Your inadequate list is certainly not worth 8 ecl.
An ogre PC however, is.

 

[HeavyG]

Um yeah, thats much more valuable than the LICH template...

About the lich template.

I don't remember how many ECLs it is, but let's say it's +2.

Yeah, it only 'costs' you 2 levels, but it also costs 120000 gp. That means you won't have much magical gear, no ? (in fact, nearly none if you're around the 12th-15th level)

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

About the lich template.

I don't remember how many ECLs it is, but let's say it's +2.

Yeah, it only 'costs' you 2 levels, but it also costs 120000 gp. That means you won't have much magical gear, no ?

It's ECL 3.

Good point about the cash. I would think that a lich is reasonably balanced as ECL 3 + 120,000 GP.

It's still amusing that a human Lich is ECL 3 whereas a Zombie is ECL 5!

 

[Marshall]

Again with the roleplaying balances combat theory.....

The ogre should not exceed the core race in combat. period.

Yeah, Again. While balancing combat vs. roleplaying in a class is a no-no. In a race its an essential aspect.

As for ignoring the Half-Orc comment, every item you brought up is, in miniature, in the H-O. By your logic everyone who wants to play a tank fighter would be taking half-orc. +2 STR?Right On! Theres no balance against those enhanced combat abilities, just a "roleplaying" restriction of -2 INT/-2 CHA. So why dont I see hundreds of H-O fighters?
Its an inconsequential restriction,

it cant possibly be balanced.

But most would say the H-O is an underpowered race, the Orc is a bigger version, the ogre is the next step up.

I'm done with this one now.