ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.

[drnuncheon]

Ogre Fighter 1:
Str 25 Dex 11 Con 18 Int 6 Wis 12 Cha 6
HD : 4d8 + 16 ( 42 hp) +1d 10 +8 (18hp) total : 60 hp
AC : 26 (+9 full plate+1; +3 large metal shield +1; +5 natural ; -1 size). Touch 9
Attack : +12 (greatsword +1), or +4 mighty(16) huge composite masterwork longbow
Damage : 2d6 + 8 greatsword or 2d6 +3 huge longbow
Feats : Weapon focus greatsword
Fort : +10 Ref : +1 Will : +2
Skills points : 4.

Hold on a sec, now. The Ogre gets a free feat from his hit dice, and a fighter feat for being a first level fighter, and a feat for being a first level character. Where's the other 2/3 of his feats?

Also, he gets his skill points for being an ogre as well as his skill points for being a fighter. (IIRC you can't go below 1 skill point/level)

I also note that you give the human a spiked chain. Why aren't you equipping the ogre exactly the same as the human? Isn't that comparing a non-optimized character to an optimized character? Either both should have greatsword or both should have spiked chain.

Keep in mind that if the ogre uses even a human-sized spiked chain he gets extra reach, and if he uses an ogre sized spiked chain he gets even more!

Oh, and as for the polymorph thing - you could polymorph the ogre into a troll just as easily! I don't have the latest revision of the polymorph spell in front of me, but isn't there something in there about only being able to be polymorphed into something one size larger than you? If so, then the ogre has many more forms to choose from...(I think I'll be a storm giant today!)

J

 

[melkoriii]

Few corrections

Correct HP for Ogre (total 48)
Make Ogre and Human Identical (same weapon and so forth)
Fix Ogre Skill points (2x4-2=6 at first lvl fighter +Ogre skill points)
Fix Ogre Fort save (F2 O2 Con4=+8)
Fix Ogre Feats (Fighter gets bonus feat at first lvl)

I believe there are more errors but I dont want to spend anymore time on it.

One thing thats a real advantage is the 20' reach with a huge spiked chain. also weight load for a large creature is x4 I believe so he can carry/move A LOT.

Im sure that in T&C they will give things to make ECL right for the most part.





<snip>
Ogre Fighter 1:
Str 25(+7) Dex 11(+0) Con 18(+4) Int 6(-2) Wis 12(+1) Cha 6(-2)
HD : 4d8 (18 hp) +1d 10 (10hp) +20 total : 48 hp
AC : 23 (+9 full plate+1; +5 natural ; -1 size). Touch 9
Attack : +12 (Spiked Chain +1), or +4 mighty(16) huge composite masterwork longbow
Damage : 2d6 + 11 hugeSpiked Chain or 2d6 +3 huge longbow
Face : 5'x5'/20'
Feats : Exotic weapon profeciency spiked chain, Weapon focus Spiked Chain,
Fort : +8 Ref : +1 Will : +2
Skills points : 10.

Human Fighter 9 :
Str 17(+3) Dex 14(+2) Con 14(+2) Int 10(+0) Wis 11(+0) Cha 8(-1)
HD 9d10 + 18 (28 + 44 = 72 hp)
AC : 20 (+1 dex, +9 full plate +1 ) Touch 11
Attacks : +14 +9 spiked chain +1 or +12/+7 mighty (16) composite masterwork longbow
Damage : 2d4 + 7 spiked chain or 1d8+3 longbow
Feats: Exotic weapon profeciency spiked chain. Weapon focus spiked chain. Weapon specialisation spiked chain. Dodge. Mobility. Spring Attack. Combat reflexe. Improved disarm. Improved trip. Expertise.
Fort : +9 Ref +6 Will +4
Skill points : 36.

</snip>

 

[bret]

Hold on a sec, now. The Ogre gets a free feat from his hit dice, and a fighter feat for being a first level fighter, and a feat for being a first level character. Where's the other 2/3 of his feats?

Isn't the feat from Ogre HD the same as the feat gained as a first level character? That was the impression I got.

 

[melkoriii]

Isn't the feat from Ogre HD the same as the feat gained as a first level character? That was the impression I got.

No he gets one at lvl 4 like every one lese. You only get one at first lvl when you have class lvls.

From what I understand.

Ether way he should have 3 feats.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

*In Mal Campaign, you compare an optimized ogre with an non-optimal fighter.

Hmm, what do you mean?

Sure, the 11th fighter isn't using the same fighting style as the ogre. I suppose it would have been convenient to have a tank fighter on hand to compare to the tank ogre, but I didn't want to twist my storyline more that I needed to.

But then you go on to design a fighter that isn't using the same fighting style as the ogre you are comparing him to! What was the point?

Still, if you need to know, Captain Abdul (the fighter) has proven extremely efficient. The breadth of his tactical options are probably a better counterpoint to Ghorgor than if Abdul had been using heavy plate and a Greatsword.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Hey, it occurs to me you should probably be aware of the stats of the 11th fighter that provide the counterppoint to Ghorgor;

(G; Ghorgor, A; Abdul)

Atk bonus with favored weapon

G; +18/+13
A; +19/+14/+9

Dmg

G; 2D8+17 X3
A; 1D6+9 15-20

Frankly, Abdul deserves a keen scimitar. But I gave him equipment of almost identical value to that of Ghorgor. Next session they will be leveling up and that will be taken care of by the grateful nation of gnomes.

Rg Atk bonus;

G;+5/+0
A;+14/+9/+4

Abdul has an easy access to a +2 mighty bow and +2 ammunition through the greater magic weapon spell of Karim, the sorcerer. Abdul also has the rapid shot feat. He's not really an archer (no precise shot) but if the enemy refuses to engage immediately, he'll pepper them with arrows insofar as possible.

HP

G; 83
A; 114

That gap is significant! But if we compare HPs to the Psywar (91) we realize that Ghorgor is still playing in the same league as that of his team mates, if not necessarily that of A.

AC;

G; 24
A; 23 (+ dodge feat)

Both A&G are handicaped by a low equipment value (I needed them to match the poorest PC of the campaign). Now that the druid has earned an intelligent hide armor made out of a vengeful wolf, I guess it's time to equip these two a little better because they are officially the poorest member of the band.

Note that A is wearing a light armor and a buckler.

Speed;

G; 30 with a run speed of 90
A; 30 with a run speed of 120

Save

G;

F: +14
R:+3
W:+6

A;

F: +12
R: +7
W:+8

Skills of A; Balance, Tumble, climb, swim, jump all at 6 rank.

Feats of A;

WF, WS and improved critical on Scimitar. Dodge, mobility and spring attack. Point blank and rapid shot. Iron will, quick draw and blindfight.

You can comment on my choice of fighter as you will.

Be aware of the following, though: In the last two sessions A managed to use just about all his feats;

-He spring attack to avoid AoO on any opponent with reach.

-He quick draws and rapid shoot daggers or arrows at anyone playing the waiting game or trying to stay out of reach (like flying spider eater with 10 feet reach)

-He used blindfight to attack an umberhulk with his eyes closed (to avoid gaze attack). This also immunize him against sneak attack from invisible rogues.

-The fact that he moves at 30/120 instead of 20/60 allowed him to take part in a chase and not spend as much as 3 rounds playing catch up.

He has overall proved to be an invaluable member of the team; an efficient fighter that is harder to neutralize than most.

 

[twjensen]

Hrm. Lets see if I understand the crux of this thread.

Ogres are (approx) ECL +8 if played by someone knowlegable of the rules who knows how to use reach, grapple, AoO to best advantage and who can build an effective character without taking every fighter feat in the PHB.

Ogres are (approx) ECL +5 for less experienced parties where the players don't regularly think of things like disarm, sunder, move through / smash through tactics.

I was skeptical of Ogres at ECL 8 until I read the actual playtest experience. It sounds like in the hands of a tactically minded player who knows the rules, Ogres have PLENTY of GREAT advantages that complement without overshadowing the abilities of the ordinary human fighter. I would rather have an Ogre at ECL 8 then a second human fighter. (But IMHO the party's first and primary fighter should be a standard race)

What is WoTC to do? They go with the experienced party ECL, figuring that in the long run, everyone will either be an experienced player or they will no longer be spending money on D&D.

 

[Spatula]

Speed;

G; 30 with a run speed of 90
A; 30 with a run speed of 120

-The fact that he moves at 30/120 instead of 20/60 allowed him to take part in a chase and not spend as much as 3 rounds playing catch up.

Is Ghorgor's speed 20/60run or 30/90?

 

[Wippit Guud]

Ok, so far, everything in this thread has been comparing the Ogre fighter 1, ECL 9, to the 9th level human fighter, ECL 9. 6000 different character combinations, and you only compare it to one?

So, lets take out 9th level human fighter and 1st level ogre fighter...

Ogre Fighter 1:
Str 25(+7) Dex 11(+0) Con 18(+4) Int 6(-2) Wis 12(+1) Cha 6(-2)
HD : 4d8 (18 hp) +1d 10 (10hp) +20 total : 48 hp
AC : 23 (+9 full plate+1; +5 natural ; -1 size). Touch 9
Attack : +12 (Spiked Chain +1), or +4 mighty(16) huge composite masterwork longbow
Damage : 2d6 + 11 hugeSpiked Chain or 2d6 +3 huge longbow
Face : 5'x5'/20'
Feats : Exotic weapon profeciency spiked chain, Weapon focus Spiked Chain,
Fort : +8 Ref : +1 Will : +2
Skills points : 10.

Human Fighter 9 :
Str 17(+3) Dex 14(+2) Con 14(+2) Int 10(+0) Wis 11(+0) Cha 8(-1)
HD 9d10 + 18 (28 + 44 = 72 hp)
AC : 20 (+1 dex, +9 full plate +1 ) Touch 11
Attacks : +14 +9 spiked chain +1 or +12/+7 mighty (16) composite masterwork longbow
Damage : 2d4 + 7 spiked chain or 1d8+3 longbow
Feats: Exotic weapon profeciency spiked chain. Weapon focus spiked chain. Weapon specialisation spiked chain. Dodge. Mobility. Spring Attack. Combat reflexe. Improved disarm. Improved trip. Expertise.
Fort : +9 Ref +6 Will +4
Skill points : 36

And compare them to say... a 6th level half-dragon/half human fighter, ECL 9

Half-green dragon/half human fighter 6:
Str 25(+7) Dex 14(+2) Con 16(+3) Int 12(+1) Wis 11(+0) Cha 0(+0)
HD 6d12 + 18 (62 hp)
AC : 25 (+2 dex, +9 full plate +1, +4 natural) Touch 12
Attacks: +14/+9 spiked chain +1 or +8/+3 mighty (16) composite masterwork longbow or +11/+6/+11/+6 claw/claw/claw/bite
Damage : 2d4+10 spiked chain or 1d8+3 longbow or 1d6+7/1d6+3/1d6+7/1d4+3 claw/claw/claw/bite
Feats: Exotic weapon profeciency spiked chain. Weapon focus spiked chain. Weapon specialisation spiked chain. Dodge. Mobility. Spring Attack. Combat reflexe. Improved disarm.
Fort : +8 Ref +5 Will +2
Skill points : 27

Breath Weapon: average of all dragons would be 6d6 damage, 1/day
Immunity: only 6d6 breath weapon is green, so immune to acid.
Low light vision and dark vision 60
Immune sleep and paralysis

-----

So, maybe the ogre is a bit weak at +8... but then, the half-dragon is a lot powerful for just +3.

If you wanna change ogres, you better start changing everything.

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

*snickers*

The entire point of all of this is to discuss the new ECLs presented in the Dragon article, so those are the only ECLs that should be used.

Half-Dragons are now ECL +4, not 3.