ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Yeah, Again. While balancing combat vs. roleplaying in a class is a no-no. In a race its an essential aspect.

As for ignoring the Half-Orc comment, every item you brought up is, in miniature, in the H-O. By your logic everyone who wants to play a tank fighter would be taking half-orc. +2 STR?Right On! Theres no balance against those enhanced combat abilities, just a "roleplaying" restriction of -2 INT/-2 CHA. So why dont I see hundreds of H-O fighters?
Its an inconsequential restriction,

it cant possibly be balanced.

But most would say the H-O is an underpowered race, the Orc is a bigger version, the ogre is the next step up.

I'm done with this one now.

If you can't see the scale difference in the Half-orc and the Ogre......

Balancing combat with roleplaying NEVER works, making it a race ECL debate does not change anything.

Bye

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

Regarding the Lich, keep in mind that you will never see a Lich PC with less than 11 levels of Cleric, Wizard, or Sorceror.

He only has an ECL of 3, but he can't be in a party of APL less than 14. The Lich also only starts with 30 K in equipment at that level, which is another hefty penalty.

The Zombie, on the other hand, can be in a party as early as level 6.

 

[Anubis]

Ogres ECL +8 . . . I dunno . . . Lizardfolk ECL +4 . . . NO WAY . . .

At least ogres are powerful. Lizardfolk hardly give you anything.

ANYWAY, I don't think ogres are THAT powerful, and the examples given above of ECL vs. CR actually DO show that, but only if you read between the lines. Here's what it means:

An ogre is CR 2, meaning four 2nd level characters should be able to take one out without too much trouble. An ogre Ftr1 is CR 3, meaning four 3rd level characters should be able to take one of them out without much trouble. A Ftr10 is CR 10, yet if they face each other in a duel, each has a 50% chance of winning despite the fact that they'll use up most of their resources. That means that two creatures of the same CR should be a good challenge for each other. By that reasoning, a CR 3 ogre Ftr1 should be about the same as a human Ftr3, meaning that they should be able to be on the same party, but if ogres are ECL +8, an ogre Ftr1 would travel with a group of 9th level characters. Any one member of an equal party should be a good challenge to other members of the party, but any one 9th level character would SQUASH an ogre Ftr1, meaning they aren't even close in terms of power.

ECL and CR should be considered the same thing. THAT is how you fix this problem.

 

[Anubis]

Wait, scratch that ECL = CR thing. I didn't mean it that way. Not exactly.

HD and ECL should be roughly the same when it comes to monsters, CR and ECL should be considered the same only with TEMPLATES, and when a character can come in should be up to the DM.

 

[Anubis]

Oh, and CRs need to fixed before ECLs can be fixed.

 

[Ancalagon]

A few remarks

Halberd does not have a 10 foot reach, so the stone halberd shouldn't have any more range than a club or huge greatsword.

A ogre with a huge spiked chain WILL get a 15 foot reach...

Finaly [shameless promotion] I have started a new thread concering the playtest I did with a centaur [/shameless promotion]

Ancalagon

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Halberd does not have a 10 foot reach, so the stone halberd shouldn't have any more range than a club or huge greatsword.

*shrug*

Call it a guisarme then. Call it what you want.

It's just a very long pole with a tomahawklike head with which you can make trip attacks at 15 feet but that can't be used within 5 feet.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Oh, and CRs need to fixed before ECLs can be fixed.

What do you suggest?

 

[Wippit Guud]

What do you suggest?

How about two CR values.

The correct CR value, and the "I won't apply any sort of roleplay to the creature and have it do stuff that it shouldn't even consider, let alone pull off" CR

That second CR is also the "players who can't think out a situation and charge in blindly" CR, incedentally.

 

[CRGreathouse]

How about two CR values.

The correct CR value, and the "I won't apply any sort of roleplay to the creature and have it do stuff that it shouldn't even consider, let alone pull off" CR

That second CR is also the "players who can't think out a situation and charge in blindly" CR, incedentally.

I agree wholeheartedly. Let's abbreviate Type I Challenge Rating "CR" and Type II Challenge Rating "ECL".