ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.

[SpikeyFreak]

I just want to lend some support and restate what I think seems to be the logical.

Mal is playing an ogre at ECL +8 and it seems to be balanced to him. His character doesn't get outshined in combat, and that is what he was aiming for.

Outside of combat the character is "useless." Well, most fighters are. That's a result of class, not race.

Who cares about his low int? That just makes for some interesting role playing.

His weapons do more damage, and he has a +10str so he ends up doing a lot more damage. How is that not a factor when considering ECL?

And about the ECL vs CR thing. When you make a character, you give him a high stat in the attribute that he is going to use the most. Thus with an ogre fighter, you will likely start with a 28(!?!?!?) strength and use a fullblade or the like for 2d8+13 (avg 22). The ogre/fighter 1 NPC which is just an ogre from the MM with a level tacked on is lower CR. That's because he will have a str of 21 and do 2d6+7 (avg 14) damage. Big difference. Plus the player ogre will likely have either a higher Con and more HP, and a higher Dex and a much better AC.

If the DM pumps up an NPC ogre like this, its worth more than CR3.

Mal, thanks for the info, I was a little skeptical about +8, but it seems not that it's about right.

--Pro-Dragon ECL Spikey

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Mal, thanks for the info, I was a little skeptical about +8, but it seems not that it's about right.

You're welcome.

Originally posted by SpikeyFreak
Who cares about his low int? That just makes for some interesting role playing..

Actually, Ghorgor's INT score is 10, so playing dumb isn't what's fun about him. OTOH his CHA is 4 which translate into shyness and being easy to influence.

The druid's awakened tiger is dumb as a rock (INT 4) but is much more charismatic than Ghorgor. What has the potential for being deliriously funny is the interaction between those two.

 

[Spatula]

In the DMG, the monster HD are counted as levels - you get max hp on your first monster HD, you don't seem to get 4x skill points at 1st level of your class (although this is unclear). In FRCS, your max HD and extra skill points come from your character class. FRCS is more favorable.

Is this in the FRCS errata? I don't recall seeing anything like that in my copy of the book.

 

[abri]

Just a few stuff I was thinking.
1)Let's compare bananas with bananas: when you play an ogre you are playing a Max out strenght character. This is not what you're doing with a human.
So let's check Ogre (ECL8)Fighter3 vs orc (ECL0) Fighter 11:
Orc has +6 Str (+4 racial, +2 for levels) and 4 more feats and 4* (2+int mod skill mod).
So compared to the +10 Str of the ogre:
it's only +2 hit and +2 dam, compared to the orc. Actually since the ogre is large that's another +2 dam on average.
With 4 feats, the orcs will have Weapon specialization, dodge, mobility, spring attack.
So net gain of +2 dam for the ogre.
Hit: net gain of +3 for the orc.
Reach well: I prefer to have the spring attack combos...
2) Ok let's not continue there: what I HATE with these ECL is that they step on the DM toes. Every campaign is different, and the use and power of monster character depends a LOT on the campaign. Fixed ECL is not a good idea: the availibility of large sized equipment, the reaction of NPC to the monsters, are all factor that would affect the ECL and that a m official bookm cannot take in to account. I'd really rather like a ECL range with explanation on their ECL number and how DM could fix the ECL in their campaign.
3)Sorry if I wasn't clear before and I want to apologize: Gorgohr seems a wonderfull character to play but IMC and in the campaigns I play in he won't survive: Every character is supposed to help in every part of the scenario. If a character is not helpfull in the investigation, then during combat he's going to get no help from the team and die... That's not really how I like to play but that's how it is where I am.
4) We have 200 more ECL to check: and we are still to the ogre ECL... The troll ECL on the other hand, seems about right: tried a party of 3 troll L1 barbarians and1 troll L3 druid (equipped and created like a typical PC party)against my 8 PC L9 and it was a bloodbath with 1 dead, 3 dying Pc and the party out of spells.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

So let's check Ogre (ECL8)Fighter3 vs orc (ECL0) Fighter 11:

I doubt that an orc should be considered ECL 0. It isn't balanced compared to an Half-Orc. They get an additional +2 to strenght that is balanced only by a -2 to WIS. If they are accepted as ECL 0 in a campaign, I suspect that the Half-orcs won't see much action.

[EDIT]Orks are a PC race at ECL 0 in the Dragonstar setting. But that's gun toting campaign. An assault blaster can deal up to 16D10 of damage on a critical hit and has a range increment of 200 feet! Strenght almost becomes a dump stat in a campaign where such weapons are available[/EDIT]

Originally posted by abri
2) Ok let's not continue there: what I HATE with these ECL is that they step on the DM toes

It's a game and it needs rules and guidelines.

Does the poison table on p.80 of the DMG step on the toes of the DM by giving DCs and damage to various poisons?

Originally posted by abri
I'd really rather like a ECL range with explanation on their ECL number and how DM could fix the ECL in their campaign.

Perhaps we'll get that. Tooth&Claw isn't out yet.

Originally posted by abri
If a character is not helpfull in the investigation, then during combat he's going to get no help from the team and die... That's not really how I like to play but that's how it is where I am.

Really? That's harsh. Is your team filled with selfish chaotic evil PCs?

Mal Malenkirk, my namesake, is a Chaotic Neutral fighter and yet he'd never let a friend down during a fight, even if that friend is a bumbling ogre that messes up during any given investigation.

I hope you don't mind my saying so, but designers shouldn't take into account the peculiar playing style of your group when balancing ECL.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Fixed ECL is not a good idea: the availibility of large sized equipment, the reaction of NPC to the monsters, are all factor that would affect the ECL and that a m official bookm cannot take in to account.

*Cough* Role-plauing restrictions affecting mechanics *cough*

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

*Cough* Role-plauing restrictions affecting mechanics *cough*

How could I miss that one?

 

[Spatula]

I doubt that an orc should be considered ECL 0. It isn't balanced compared to an Half-Orc. They get an additional +2 to strenght that is balanced only by a -2 to WIS.

Orcs are also penalized in sunlight, which is pretty important. But I suspect that they would still be a +1 race by WotC's standards, because of the large STR bonus.

 

[reapersaurus]

Orcs are also penalized in sunlight, which is pretty important. But I suspect that they would still be a +1 race by WotC's standards, because of the large STR bonus.

If you say that orcs would be +1, than what would you rate Dwarves at?
As i remember, when calculated, the dwarves have the highest ECL of any base race.

 

[reapersaurus]

Re: Re: Re: Apologies

And the rest of you aren't using an ogre at ECL 8 in their campaign. But apparently, you seem able to see from theory things that I am unable to see in practice.

I've stayed out of this, but read almost every post.

Mal - i think you should be aware that your continual assurance that "I've playtested this, therefore it is proven" is starting to get tiresome. <-- just an observation, not an attack

Hint - I don't care what you "determine", based on your play"testing".
Your campaign is not necessarily like mine, and I think you are sweeping too many restrictions under the rug. (just like many others have repeatedly said)

Your campaign. Your conclusions.