ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.

[MythandLore]

Huh. Quite weird; asking the Sage about this might not be the worst idea...

Sounds like a good idea to me.
You'd think Huge armor would slow huge creatures the same way meduim armor would a meduim creature.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Ghorgor the ECL 8 ogre has now a second session under his belt and is still going strong.

Low point:

He had a fright after being hit very hard by a fiery rock thrown by a fire giant monk. His relatively low HP really showed up at that moment.

High point:

The attack of the mechanized spider eater: these are flying creatures with 10 feet reach. Ghorgor was the only melee fighter type able to bat them out of the sky when they were making their pass. The others had to rely on ranged weapon.

He made his save against the umber hulk's confusion gaze and managed to lay the smack on it. Meanwhile the psychic warrior and the awakened tiger both failed their save and were going at each other's throat with gusto, much to my amusement.

His very high strenght and good climbing skill proved useful out of combat this session. Ghorgor was able to climb a steep cliff while the vertically challenged cleric (over 250 pounds with his equipment) was strapped to his back and hanging on for dear life.

All in all it was good.

ECL 8 really look on target so far.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

You argument is off.
Ogre, CR2 , ECL+5 (DMG)
If you were to compare the two it would be:
Tarrasque CR20, ECL +50.
(and +50 ECL sounds a lot closer to right, over the +80 in the Dragon Mag.)

Come on Myth, be serious. What sort of answer is that?

Clearly Xeovk wasn't making an argument in that particular sentence, but simply illustrating an opinion. You distorted his meaning and turned it against him unfairly. It's called an extended analogy fallacy; the ECL of the tarrasque has no real bearing on this discussion.

He was simply expressing the opinion that ogres would be too powerful as ECl 5, that's all. And he should know because he plays in my campaign and has been adventuring with Ghorgor, the ECL 8 ogre.

During the first fight that involved Ghorgor, Balthazar the 11th level psychic warrior (Xeovk's character) got grappled early by a mechanized ogre and got pounded mercilessly into unconsciouness. Meanwhile Ghorgor was laying waste to the battlefield.

Balthazar looked like a sidekick in that battle. Luckily further encounters didn't prove as humiliating for Balthazar.

Still, Xeovk and I have a good idea of what an Ogre can do as a member of an adventuring band.

 

[MythandLore]

Come on Myth, be serious. What sort of answer is that?

I was serious.

Clearly Xeovk wasn't making an argument in that particular sentence, but simply illustrating an opinion. You distorted his meaning and turned it against him unfairly. It's called an extended analogy fallacy; the ECL of the tarrasque has no real bearing on this discussion.

There was no distortion nor did I turn anything.

Dead even?!?
1)... 8)...

If this is almost dead even, then I suppose the Tarrasque should not be too wrong at ECL+20

Xeovke

He was simply expressing the opinion that ogres would be too powerful as ECl 5, that's all. And he should know because he plays in my campaign and has been adventuring with Ghorgor, the ECL 8 ogre.

He use a bad comparison.
To me it makes him look like he didn't have a decent understanding of what he was talking about.
Look at his post, I can see he is trying to defend your position because he's your friend and he plays with you, and your trying to defend his because you are his friend.
But, he was clearly wrong and he should have used a realistic argument, it would be like me saying "If +8 for an ogre is right, then I suppose a Half orc should not be too wrong at ECL+5."
Do you see the problem?
It makes me look like I'm way of base and don't understand the rules.
You really could have a Tarrasque at +5 in your game and a Elf at +400, I don't care, but as far as game balance, it's way off.
+5 for a Ogre is not way off, +8 for a Ogre is not that far off ether (I think is a little high), +20 for a Tarrasque is.
Sure a +8 Ogre may work just fine in your game, but +5 can work just as well in someone else’s, I personally never had a Ogre in our games, but we have had a Troll (at DMG +8) and he was just fine for the level.

BTW I think "Dragon's" +80 Tarrasque is off.

 

[Immort]

Bah. Just polymorph yerselves inta whutever yer wants ta be. We polyed our barb into a troll. HE ROCKS! Buttloads of strength, 10' reach, natural ac, and he can still sue his stuff. Why bother with monster classes?
-Immort

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Ogre, CR2 , ECL+5 (DMG)

This comment makes me wonder if we are debating the same thing.
Are you aware that the ECL system does not exist anywhere in the DMG? The DMG system is less favorable, therefore the adjustment shoudl be lower for that system.

 

[MythandLore]

This comment makes me wonder if we are debating the same thing.
Are you aware that the ECL system does not exist anywhere in the DMG? The DMG system is less favorable, therefore the adjustment shoudl be lower for that system.

Oh, sorry about that, it was "Class Levels" in the DMG.
The ECL mess started with FRCS book, where Trolls still had a "Level Adjustment" of +5 or "ECL" +5.
Which means the same thing as the DMG's "Class Levels"+5.
Because the "Class Levels" mean the same thing as "Level Adjustment" of the "ECL" system.
It's just that the term "ECL" was not created when they made the DMG.
Now they changed the numbers in the web errata for the FRCS so it's +8 to match the Dragon Article (or perhaps vice versa).
And how is the DMG one "less favorable" then the ECL system, when they are the same thing just with diffrent names?
The FRCS even tells you to use the stat chart from the DMG.

 

[drnuncheon]

And how is the DMG one "less favorable" then the ECL system, when they are the same thing just with diffrent names?
The FRCS even tells you to use the stat chart from the DMG.

There are several differences between the FRCS ECL rules and the DMG "Level Adjustment" rules. The ones that come to mind:

• In the DMG system you get starting gold/equipment based on your class level. In FRCS it's based on the ECL. FRCS is definitely more favorable here.
• In the DMG, the monster HD are counted as levels - you get max hp on your first monster HD, you don't seem to get 4x skill points at 1st level of your class (although this is unclear). In FRCS, your max HD and extra skill points come from your character class. FRCS is more favorable.
• In the DMG you are treated as a character of (HD + level), in FRCS you use ECL. DMG is more favorable for monsters with a level adjustment greater than their HD.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

FRCS errata came before the Dragon article.

And they are not exactly the same.

The DMG version implies that monster races with 1+ HD do not get 4*skills at first level. Granted this is not stated clearly and only appears in the NPC discussion. But the NPC discussion does state that these cases are considerd to be multi-classed and therefore do not get the 4* skill point in their first class level.

Lastly the DMG version states that a creature with no class levels gets gear for a creature of its kind and a creature with class level gets gear only for those levels (pg 24). The FRCS system version states that you gain gear according to your total ECL. So the ECL version gains a lot more gear, especially if you are talking about +4 or higher races.

These are less favorable for the DMG version.

 

[thundershot]

Actually, if the creature has HD (which none of the FRCS ones in the beginning do), then their first HD is maxed out, not the character class (see page 289 of FRCS under Monster Levels). The only thing that's been left in the air about ECL (as far as I can see) is how exactly do you determine skill points and feats for monster HD. The only thing that *I* can think of is page 11 of the Monster Manual which gives the base skill points of the starting creature, and how many skill points for each additional HD. Somene has stated before that you choose one of the creature's "natural" feats, and the rest you can choose on your own... <shrugs> I can't find this in writing though...


Whee!
Chris, DM of ECLed charcters, and so far, the ones in Dragon are working well....