ECL Races, EVER worth it?

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Playing a Drow, recently, I've really come to view Spell Resistance as a major PitA.

I sat through three combats with relatively little to do, as we happened to be fighting a few big-HD Fiendish creatures ... not all that DIFFICULT for a large party of 7th level PCs, but with a Caster Level of 6 (1 Drow Racial Level) I would have had a bear of a time penetrating SR 23.

Of course I have lots of problems with basing things off of "hit dice" instead of "CR". This came up as the party Necromancer proceeded to Animate a dead Fiendish Tyrannosaur that the party Cleric would never be able to turn (as turning is based on HD) but which a 3rd level Sorc could wrest control of instantly with Command Undead spell. Turning Undead in general drives me nuts.

At least I got my money's worth last session for that 1 LA. Was targeted by a lightningbolt, saw the damage rolled, was enough to kill my character outright if I didn't save ... with only a +4 ref I had a 30% chance ... rolled my save, blew it ... and remembered the SR. The GM rolled, failed, and all was well. Odd ability, though.

--fje

 

[maggot]

If the problem with level adjustment is that it's "too linear", one way I can think of to "fix" the system is for races with a level adjustment to grant level-based advantages as well. For example, a half-celestial gains additional and more powerful spell-like abilities as it gains levels. Similarly, a half-dragon's natural armor bonus and breath weapon damage could increase as it gains levels as well instead of remaining a flat number, and it could get an extra ability score increase on top of the ability score increase a normal character gets, e.g. increasing Strength by 1 point every 4 levels. I recognize it would be a massive effort to define level-based advantages for every powerful race, though.

Good idea giving out scaling benefits to LA races, but I disagree with your examples. I would modify that to benefits that scale well. +1 Natural Armor will always be useful whether you are first or 20th level (in 3.5 with barkskin stacking that is). Same with +2 racial bonus to Strength, it stacks with everything. Fire resistance 5, breath weapon for 6d6, or ability to cast daylight do not scale with level. They are much more valuable at 1st than 20th. I've revised the half-dragon template for my game to scale the breath weapon with HD, works much better.

 

[DonTadow]

The only reason I allow ecl races in my campaign is because for particular players, they live to play a particular kind of character. They can care less about powergaming, the challenges or the story, just let them play that particular character.

Ironically I have encountered this with three out of four of the females whom play in my campaign. I've been very open to accomodating them because I know, as a DM, that is where they get their enjoyment, playing that centaur, or weretiger or half-dragon they've always wanted to play

 

[seankreynolds]

How can a monsters potential CR or ECL change simply as a result of it being present more often? For a start, there is no ability that cannot somehow be duplicated by spell, item or feat anyway.

Easy. I create the "fireballer" template, which gives the creature unlimited used of fireball as an SLA. On a monster, the creature might get to use this ability 1-3 times at most because at the end of the encounter, it's dead. Depending on the base creature, this may be worth +1 to CR because the creature is tougher than normaly.
Now add the fireballer template to a PC. Suddenly you have a PC who can fireball all the time, every round, no stress ... ten encounters per day, at least ten fireballs. Encounters with groups of creatures become a lot easier, and weak threats are never a threat. This ability is certainly worth at least +1 LA to a low-level character, if not more.

That's how an unlimited-something in the PC's hands is more powerful than in the hands of a monster, even if "PC" and "monster" in this example are a human Wiz1 (i.e., a PC Wiz1 and an NPC Wiz1).

For a less explosive example, replace fireball with dominate monster. A monster might get to use that ability a couple of times before it dies. A PC with that ability quickly ends up with a caravan of enslaved monsters following behind it for the rest of his adventuring career. The ability to use an ability ten times per day is stronger than the ability to use it once per day, and if you're a monster, your lifespan is only a few rounds (so "at will" really only means 2-3 times per day), whereas a PCs is "on camera" all day (so "at will" really means "as often as I want it, maybe even a hundred times a day). Thus, again, even if "PC" and "monster" are the same thing, such as a Ftr1.

 

[Mokona]

Monsters could more easily transition between PC and NPC if a lot fewer at will abilities were given out by game designers. Perhaps that design philosophy might catch on if it really is true that monsters should be treated as a threat based on using their abilities only a few times.

 

[Psion]

Monsters could more easily transition between PC and NPC if a lot fewer at will abilities were given out by game designers.

Indeed. What it comes down to is that most designers designing monsters aren't designing them as PCs.

Even back in the old 3.0 PsiHB, Bruce Cordell recommends changing "at will" to "3/day" for anything destined to be a PC.

 

[Bloodweaver1]

Answering the original posters question about if there is a worthy ECL + character race. Try checking out the Mul, Half-Gaint, and Thri-Kreen described in the new 3.5 edition of Darksun. (www.athas.org) The races where revamp by players like you and me and as far as I can tell are fairly balanced. Though these races are not offical since Darksun was dropped by WoTC. However WoTC has given full permission to the owners of the site to edit and make changes to the campiagn as they see fit. So its your DM's call on whether or not he will let them in.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I've always wanted giant wizards and giant priests without them being pathetic. Even as NPCs they are way under the curve. The CR rules at least allow you to give two levels of mage to a giant before you its CR goes up. But if you want to make a 11th level giant mage, he is epic.

The CR debate is a bit different to what we're discusiing here but for the record I treat purely pc classed npcs as 1 CR lower until around 11th level when it is 2 CRs lower.

A frost giant (cr8) wizard 10 would be cr13 by my reckoning: 13=8+(10/2), which feels about right.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

The recurring theme I'm reading is that the game designers wanted to have baseline races for a default campaign that would determine what is normal; this normalcy was going to be along the lines of Gygax's original world of humans, elves etc...

ECL when it was first articulated was not to challenge this primacy of the core races & the grounded expectations in player minds of what constituted the default d&d experience. Weird & wonderful was going to be allowed but it was to be mechanically hardcoded as an exotic choice for the adventurous player but not a serious contender for racial primacy; the obviousness of chosing the normal core race was always to be preserved as the natural decision.

I have no problem with this concept as establishing a baseline expectation is important to imbed some framework for suspension of disbelief in an imaginary game; there needs to be a groundwork that players can accept before moving into unexplored areas.

In a short reply to the op ECL is not by default worth it BUT, they will still be taken by the curious player & generally they won't feel unbearably gimped.

 

[S'mon]

Even back in the old 3.0 PsiHB, Bruce Cordell recommends changing "at will" to "3/day" for anything destined to be a PC.

I find it's often necessary to do something like this anyway if you want to explain why Shadows haven't taken over the world or why the red dragon hasn't burnt down all the cities with its fiery breath.