ECL Races, EVER worth it?

[BSF]

I just wanted to pipe up on Exp penalties vs level adjustment.

One thing I think needs to kept in consideration is that Exp is a resource. It doesn't just affect what level you are. True, that is the primary purpose of the Exp mechanic. But Exp is also a resource used for some spells and for magic items. If you don't have enough Exp available, you cannot cast certain spells or make some items. This is one of my pet peeves about DMs that award Exp irregularly actually. It is possible to give out Exp and not allow people to advance a level until they can realistically train for it.

Let's take an extreme example with the Miracle or Wish spell. Yes, you must be high enough level to cast the spell. So with an Exp penalty or with LA, you lag a little behind a human spellcaster. But once you are able to cast the spell, a PC that has a 10% exp penalty needs to earn 5556 Exp, then apply the penalty, before having enough exp to cast a wish/miracle. The same type of thing happens on a lesser scale for every spell that has an Exp cost, or magic items. In effect, you are penalizing a spellcasting PC twice if she makes items or casts spells using Exp as a component.

Obviously, this will have a different scale of impact depending on your campaign and play style. If PCs never make magic items and think that exp burning spells are foolish to cast, you will never see the issue.

 

[BSF]

Doesn't SOMEBODY have a book with 1e or 2e drow stats handy?

I'm at work, so sadly no I do not.

 

[Andy_Collins]

Thanks for stopping by

But if this is the case, why does it seems there is a paranoia about giving LA 0 races no int bonus in the core set?

It's the elf problem, but in reverse. The game tells you "elves are wizards, rah rah rah" and the world assumes that to be true.

Unfortunately, nothing in the game mechanics of the PH supports that. (Heck, many players consider halflings to be a better choice as a wizard than elves because of their AC & attack bonus for size.) Thus, the last thing we want to do is undermine elves even more by publishing a LA +0 race that's CLEARLY better at wizardry (via the +2 Int) than the elves.

(The same's not true, say, of most other PH claims about race + class, such as that "half-orcs make good barbarians" or "halflings make good rogues"--these are fully supported by the mechanics of the races.)

Now, if elves came factory-loaded with +2 Int, or the game world had room for a race more wizardly than elves, you'd certainly see LA +0 races with an Int boost.

Whoa, I'd advocate being careful there. Declawing the drow is a sin of the father, AFAIAC. Drow are first and foremost a monstrous race. Looking back to the 1e UA, making "PC-ized" drow made for an uncomfortable dichotomy. They still seem to be missing some of their classic spell like abilities in 3e, but at least a drow is a drow is a drow now, and I think PC-izing drow would be a poor excuse for nerfing them out to the point they are unrecognizable.

IMO, if core races got a bump up in power, drow wouldn't need much of a reduction to be on par. Just off the top of my head, here's what that drow might look like:
+2 Dex, +2 Int or Cha (one or the other not both), -2 Con
Darkvision 60 or 90 feet (not 120)
Immunity to sleep
+2 racial bonus on saves vs. spells (no extra bonus vs. enchantment)
Wpn prof: hand crossbow, rapier, short sword
Sp: dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire each 1/day
Light blindness

Really it's just all about getting rid of their SR, a mechanic I personally find odious to the game in just about every way. I think drow could survive the loss of SR--they already have a boost to Will saves vs. spells, and that could easily be widened to "all saves vs. spells" which is what dwarves have.

If this didn't look enough like "classic" drow, the designers could still "restore" some of that lost drowness via feats or other mechanical options (much as FR did with the Highborn Drow feat).

Compare that to what the elf in that same game might look like:
+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con
Low-light vision
Immunity to sleep
+2 racial bonus on saves vs. enchantment effects
+2 Listen/Search/Spot
Wpn prof: longsword, rapier, longbow, shortbow
Free check to find secret doors
(Maybe not completely equal yet, but close enough that you get the point.)

Obviously, the only reason to do this is if the game (or a setting) wants to use drow as a PC race. Like it or not, I think that horse is out of the barn by now, and it'd be foolish to keep our heads in the sand as to whether or not the rules should allow that functionality.

 

[Psion]

It's the elf problem, but in reverse. The game tells you "elves are wizards, rah rah rah" and the world assumes that to be true.

Unfortunately, nothing in the game mechanics of the PH supports that. (Heck, many players consider halflings to be a better choice as a wizard than elves because of their AC & attack bonus for size.) Thus, the last thing we want to do is undermine elves even more by publishing a LA +0 race that's CLEARLY better at wizardry (via the +2 Int) than the elves.

(The same's not true, say, of most other PH claims about race + class, such as that "half-orcs make good barbarians" or "halflings make good rogues"--these are fully supported by the mechanics of the races.)

Now, if elves came factory-loaded with +2 Int, or the game world had room for a race more wizardly than elves, you'd certainly see LA +0 races with an Int boost.

That certainly makes sense.

(snip proposed elves)
(Maybe not completely equal yet, but close enough that you get the point.)

Obviously, the only reason to do this is if the game (or a setting) wants to use drow as a PC race. Like it or not, I think that horse is out of the barn by now, and it'd be foolish to keep our heads in the sand as to whether or not the rules should allow that functionality.

I don't see making them "equal" as a completely worthy goal, and I find the idea of stripping dark elf spell resistance would be the final straw in nerfing them (after losing a flurry of abilities in the 2e->3e conversion). Their spell resistance is almost a defining characteristic; to me it would be like taking away (for example) the beholder's anit-magic cone.

I am not seeing that there are as many players who want to play a drow every game as there once were. And I think there is a good reason for that: they are far closer to being balanced now. I think that the reason for their massive popularity between the release of UA and 3e was that, even nerfed, they had a significant advantage for no cost.

So sure, allow them. But you will be losing more than you gain IMO if in so doing you gut a classic villain.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Eh. I wouldn't mind seeing SR go the way of the dodo, myself. It's just an ... odd ... ability. While it's been with Drow for a long time, I don't see "that's the way its always been" as being a particularly striking reason for keeping something in a game system.

Personally, I've always found that at least 2/3 of the "I wanna play Drow" fervor has been because of R.A.Salvatore's Dribble Do'Udon books ... everybody loves an angsty hero, and SO many people want to play "the only good drow". Apparently half the Drow population woke up one morning and decided to be "the only good Drow". The SR, IMHO, isn't really WORTH it. It's a very powerful ability, but as I've said, if you forget to roll it or aren't targeted often by spells ... it's 80-90% of their LA down the drain.

--fje

 

[DaveMage]

Doesn't SOMEBODY have a book with 1e or 2e drow stats handy?

Not official, but check this link:

http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/char/race003.html#Drow

 

[Psion]

Not official, but check this link:

http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/char/race003.html#Drow

All drow have dancing lights, faerie fire, and darkness 5' radius as innate spells for use once per day. Upon reaching level 4 in any class, they gain detect magic, know alignment, and levitate, once per day. Females also gain clairvoyance, detect lie (or detect truth), suggestion, and dispel magic, once per day beginning at level 4.

That's what I seem to remember. The levitate wasn't a female only ability.

 

[DaveMage]

Here's another link that is more verbatim...

http://www.planetadnd.com/interactive_books/mm00097.php

 

[Psion]

Eh. I wouldn't mind seeing SR go the way of the dodo, myself. It's just an ... odd ... ability.

And one that lets us give wizards lots of neat powers at high levels and still give anyone else some spotlight time. If you have a better alterntative for SR, great. But whatever "maigc limiting" mechanic you come up with, Drow need to have heaping spoonfuls of it.

While it's been with Drow for a long time, I don't see "that's the way its always been" as being a particularly striking reason for keeping something in a game system.

I think you are twisting my words, but I think you need ot be very cautious when deciding what's dispensible in an update of the game. Especially one built on longstanding IP.

Personally, I've always found that at least 2/3 of the "I wanna play Drow" fervor has been because of R.A.Salvatore's Dribble Do'Udon books

Oh, goodness. Though once a scourge, I haven't seen a Drizzt clone in years.

 

[I'm A Banana]

3.75 here we come?

"Paragon Classes" are another way to introduce more powers.

I'm glad it's being called out as a "kludge," though I do remember at first seeing it, it sounded like a GENIUS kludge. And it makes me feel better about re-balancing some of the races for my PS campaign, for instance. One of the appealing facets of Planescape has always been the "wierd races welcome!" atmosphere.

And yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing SR die off, either.

I'd change how LA hinders spellcasters more strongly than non-spellcasters. Not sure exactly how to do it yet, but I have some ideas.

....Magic Bonus like Base Attack Bonus?!