[ECL] When do you use ECL vs. Hit Die?

[Artoomis]

A character’s ECL affects the experience the character earns, the amount of experience the character must have before gaining a new level, and the character’s starting equipment.

These epic rules work for monsters with character levels, using the creature’s effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels.

(Of course, the Epic rules where written for 3.0, and the DMG statement for Epic Rules does not include the ECL bit.)

Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases: A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.

Since ECL is used for starting equipment, should it also be used for determining the number of Vow of Poverty levels you have? I ask since Vow of Poverty acts as replacement for equipment.

Also, if ECL applies to anything other than exp. pts., equipment levels and EPIC levels please specify where it applies. A number of things refer to "character level" which would intuitively mean ECL but really seems to mean Hit Die. Any help clarifying this would be much appreciated.

While we are at it, does ECL even apply for EPIC any more (since it is not mentioned in the DMG, but the DMG rules for EPIC are rather cursory)?

 

[Planesdragon]

Since ECL is used for starting equipment, should it also be used for determining the number of Vow of Poverty levels you have? I ask since Vow of Poverty acts as replacement for equipment.

As I understand it, yes, literally. Yes, from a rules-design perspective.

Also, if ECL applies to anything other than exp. pts., equipment levels and EPIC levels please specify where it applies. A number of things refer to "character level" which would intuitively mean ECL but really seems to mean Hit Die. Any help clarifying this would be much appreciated.

Well, "Effective Character Level" (Hit Dice + LA) is only the shorthand expression for those bits that Level Adjustment accounts for. So, just XP, how much equipment a new high-level character should have, and balance with the other party members.

Using ECL to flip the "Epic" bit seems, IMO, too much. PC-monsters should get the full benefit of their first 20 hit dice, the same as PC-humans. The rationale for the aborted Epic advancement seems, IMO, to fall through when discussing a character with a "level" that doens't give any BAB or saves.

 

[Artoomis]

No more comments?

Aw, c'mon ... please?

 

[Pax]

No, I don't use ECL for Vow of Poverty benefits - as with a spellcaster, that Vow is lessened in value if you have a level-adjusted race or template.

And, barring the changes made in the 3.5 update booklet or specific ELH errata, I generally consider the ELH to be the "primary source" for all things epic. Thus, ECL tells you when you are or are not an epic character (thus ... everyone goes Epic at the same XP total), how much starting gold and XP you get, and what sorts of opposition you shoudl be able to face.

And in fact, one of my stronger builds for the Exodus is a level-adjusted Vow of Poverty Druid/Shifter ... Demetian (Druid(5)/Warshaper(5)/Epic Shifter(11), Human with the Saint template - which was houseruled in the Exodus to have a +4 level adjustment, not the +2 listed in the BoED).

Mind, I may be reworking him to use the Druidic Avenger variant class from Unearthed Arcana. (Mmmmmm, greater wildshape and rage! Tasty! ^_^).

And yes, I have looked at how the Vow of Poverty's benefits should continue to improve as one enters Epic levels - but I applied very LITTLE of that, since Demetian (despite his ECL of 25) only has 21 actual character levels.

Using ECL to flip the "Epic" bit seems, IMO, too much. PC-monsters should get the full benefit of their first 20 hit dice, the same as PC-humans. The rationale for the aborted Epic advancement seems, IMO, to fall through when discussing a character with a "level" that doens't give any BAB or saves.

In the Exodus, you get both; if you are a Human Half-Dragon Fighter(22) - ECL 25, and this the right starting level for the Exodus - you count as an Epic character as of Fighter(18), whichis ECL21. But you still get full BAB and saving throws fopr Fighter(18), Fighter(19), and Fighter(20) -- but not Epic Attack and Saves for those three levels.

IOW, BAB/EAB, Base Saves/Epic Saves ... counts only your ACTUAL character level. But, "epic or not" in terms of feats and class eligibility is dependant on ECL.

That same Half-Dragon could be a Fighter(7)/Epic Weapon Master(15), if he preferred - when he achieves his 18th actual character level, being ECL21, he qualifies for epic progressions of any class he has the maximum pre-epic levels in. So, if he had been a Fighter(7)/Weapon Master(10), he could take a level of Epic Weapon Master for his 18th character level.

The rationale behind that is - the character is paying the same XP, there's no reason IMO to double-dip them due to their LA.

 

[Scion]

Since ECL is used for starting equipment, should it also be used for determining the number of Vow of Poverty levels you have? I ask since Vow of Poverty acts as replacement for equipment.

I would definately use ecl as the basis for vop, after all, like you said, it does replace equipment.

But going by the raw I believe that ecl would not be used.

Monstrous characters already tend to have to pay for their abilities twice (once with hd and another time with LA) no need to make them pay three times.. you might as well just say no to the monstrous characters to begin with rather than stabbing people in the eyes repeatidly and then saying, 'well, it is your own fault for wanting to play a character outside of the couple of special ones I have chosen'.