ECLs and DMG...difference?
- Thread starter Geron Raveneye
- Start date
Mal-2
First Post
Re: You know...
Generally, it's the other way around. According to the MM, p 12: "This book lists only the weakest and most common version of each creature. The Advancement line shows how tough the creature can get, in term of extra Hit Dice. (This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.)"
So, you could consider the troll listed in the monster manual the same way you would consider the entry for elf or dwarf (which are depicted as 1st level warriors).
Mal-2
Geron Raveneye said:
Generally, it's the other way around. According to the MM, p 12: "This book lists only the weakest and most common version of each creature. The Advancement line shows how tough the creature can get, in term of extra Hit Dice. (This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.)"
So, you could consider the troll listed in the monster manual the same way you would consider the entry for elf or dwarf (which are depicted as 1st level warriors).
Mal-2
Geron Raveneye
Explorer
Damn...
...you´re right...there goes a sensible take on monster races...
Back to the drawing boards... 
...you´re right...there goes a sensible take on monster races...
Back to the drawing boards... Here's a question for the troll example someone gave a while back:
What's the troll's will save?
I'll bet...and I'm very sure that I'm not going out on any limbs here...that it is EXTREMELY low. That means a single suggestion, charm person, confusion, hold person, charm monster, domination (should I keep going?), could very easily turn that "overpowered" combat juggernaut back against the party that it's supposed to be a member of. Before you go saying "but that doesn't matter, because he's still overpowered," keep in mind that the ECL system is supposedly meant to tell you how balanced the race is for a player, and this, presumably, includes survivability (and danger to the party).
The point is that the new ECL system is just an overreaction. I think, for the most part, that the system in the DMG works just fine. The reason that people are whining about it is because it allows for more customizable characters, and when you have more customizing that can be done then people are going to come up with more interesting concepts and ways to exploit the strengths of the new races. Or possibly it is because people are tired of the races in the DMG and want to do something different. Or maybe they want to play a different concept that they feel wouldn't be served well by the races in the PHB. So the "heroic fantasy" people ("we can't have monsters in our party, it's not how I view high fantasy!") do all they can to discourage monster races as PCs (this also probably has something to do with the "evil is always weaker than good" junk that they always put into the game...notice that celestials have more immunities, half-celestials better stat mods and a greater chance to be able to fly, gold dragons are always 1 point ahead of red dragons (pretty much), etc. etc., and although not all of the ECL races people take are evil, a large portion of them are since most of the "monsters" out there aren't good). Having played with ECL characters in my group, I have observed that there doesn't seem to be a balance problem with them. Yes, they do allow for strengths that can be exploited, but they also create weaknesses for the character that they have to either hope never come up or work to cover up (either way reducing their effectiveness to some extent). But as it is right now, the DMG and soldarin's system are definitely not unbalanced (in nearly all cases, at least).
What's the troll's will save?
I'll bet...and I'm very sure that I'm not going out on any limbs here...that it is EXTREMELY low. That means a single suggestion, charm person, confusion, hold person, charm monster, domination (should I keep going?), could very easily turn that "overpowered" combat juggernaut back against the party that it's supposed to be a member of. Before you go saying "but that doesn't matter, because he's still overpowered," keep in mind that the ECL system is supposedly meant to tell you how balanced the race is for a player, and this, presumably, includes survivability (and danger to the party).
The point is that the new ECL system is just an overreaction. I think, for the most part, that the system in the DMG works just fine. The reason that people are whining about it is because it allows for more customizable characters, and when you have more customizing that can be done then people are going to come up with more interesting concepts and ways to exploit the strengths of the new races. Or possibly it is because people are tired of the races in the DMG and want to do something different. Or maybe they want to play a different concept that they feel wouldn't be served well by the races in the PHB. So the "heroic fantasy" people ("we can't have monsters in our party, it's not how I view high fantasy!") do all they can to discourage monster races as PCs (this also probably has something to do with the "evil is always weaker than good" junk that they always put into the game...notice that celestials have more immunities, half-celestials better stat mods and a greater chance to be able to fly, gold dragons are always 1 point ahead of red dragons (pretty much), etc. etc., and although not all of the ECL races people take are evil, a large portion of them are since most of the "monsters" out there aren't good). Having played with ECL characters in my group, I have observed that there doesn't seem to be a balance problem with them. Yes, they do allow for strengths that can be exploited, but they also create weaknesses for the character that they have to either hope never come up or work to cover up (either way reducing their effectiveness to some extent). But as it is right now, the DMG and soldarin's system are definitely not unbalanced (in nearly all cases, at least).
Game Control
First Post
FANGO said:
Not being a humanoid, the Troll is immune to quite a few of those.
Aside from that, you're right. But that's not only a problem for the troll.
Whether a party has a troll or a human fighter, it will use the same tactics to protect its weak willed members from mind affecting effect.
Anyway, the the ECL isn't an over reaction. The DMG guidelines lead to over powering PCs whic isn't good for balance. The ECL system is reasonably balanced IME.
EDIT: Oh for crying out loud, I keep forgetting to log out of my IC ID!
Mal Malenkirk AKA Game Control
Last edited:
Geron Raveneye
Explorer
@ragnarok
Well, I order my Dragon through a local comicshop, and they import it from the States...so technically I got mine from the US...I´m not sure about webshops or something similar...maybe a roleplaying shop has them on backlist?
Well, I order my Dragon through a local comicshop, and they import it from the States...so technically I got mine from the US...I´m not sure about webshops or something similar...maybe a roleplaying shop has them on backlist?
Good point with the being immune thing. But all that does is stops the lower level casters from being able to get him (like charm person and such). There are still plenty of spells with will saves that will really mess him up, and there's really not a whole lot you can do (besides getting cloaks of resistance, which I get on all of my characters anyway) to make his will save stellar. It's always going to be low enough that it's a matter of luck whether he can make the save or not, and casting as few as two of those will save spells will probably almost guarantee a success. Spending 11 levels (is that what it is? something like that...) for only a +3 to your will save is pretty terrible, and will leave you far behind the rest of the party, human fighters included (human fighters get an extra feat...the troll will have less feats than anyone else, also, because for those 11 levels all he gets are something like 1 or 2 feats, compared to the human fighter's 8 or so, making it a whole lot harder to find some room to get iron will).
And also, as I said in my last post, the DMG doesn't lead to any more overpowering than the PHB does. All it does is allow people to have new characters with different strengths and weaknesses, and new roleplaying opportunites. It may be that these things lead to overpowering in some situations, but that is only because people find ways to exploit their new strengths. And regardless, they do have weaknesses and those are often magnified by their race (or at least they are if the strengths are exploited). Take my half-ogre fighter/barbarian/grappler type, for example, who is based off of the bugbear in the MM except he is also size large rather than medium (back in the beginning of 3e we still weren't sure how much worked, so we decided to fool around a bit). While you may think that this character would rip people up left and right, he really isn't all that powerful and is often outshined in combat even by the party cleric (if he utilizes his strengths (like grappling), however, he can usually turn things a little in his direction, but sometimes that will leave him even more open to attacks (like against the monk who I could hardly even hit while he was pummeling me for tons of damage every round because I have a terrible AC)).
I'd like to hear some reasoning behind "The DMG guidelines lead to over powering PCs whic isn't good for balance," because so far you haven't backed yourself up at all and that doesn't do anything to convince me, for one ;-)
And also, as I said in my last post, the DMG doesn't lead to any more overpowering than the PHB does. All it does is allow people to have new characters with different strengths and weaknesses, and new roleplaying opportunites. It may be that these things lead to overpowering in some situations, but that is only because people find ways to exploit their new strengths. And regardless, they do have weaknesses and those are often magnified by their race (or at least they are if the strengths are exploited). Take my half-ogre fighter/barbarian/grappler type, for example, who is based off of the bugbear in the MM except he is also size large rather than medium (back in the beginning of 3e we still weren't sure how much worked, so we decided to fool around a bit). While you may think that this character would rip people up left and right, he really isn't all that powerful and is often outshined in combat even by the party cleric (if he utilizes his strengths (like grappling), however, he can usually turn things a little in his direction, but sometimes that will leave him even more open to attacks (like against the monk who I could hardly even hit while he was pummeling me for tons of damage every round because I have a terrible AC)).
I'd like to hear some reasoning behind "The DMG guidelines lead to over powering PCs whic isn't good for balance," because so far you haven't backed yourself up at all and that doesn't do anything to convince me, for one ;-)
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
I've engaged in drawn out debate of this kind before.
Let's just say that I playtested extensively during my campaign an Ogre fighter at ECL 8 along side of a human fighter of equivalent level. It was reasonably balanced, with both fighters being about equally useful to the group. If the search feature was enabled you could find the whole thread dedicated to the adventures of Ghorgor the Ogre painter, huh, fighter.
With 3 more levels of fighter (at class equivalent +5 such as suggested by the DMG), the ogre would have been vastly superior to the other warrior types adventuring with him, though. Better AC, more damage, better atk bonus, reach etc. Better at everything that makes a fighter a fighter, basicly.
Let's just say that I playtested extensively during my campaign an Ogre fighter at ECL 8 along side of a human fighter of equivalent level. It was reasonably balanced, with both fighters being about equally useful to the group. If the search feature was enabled you could find the whole thread dedicated to the adventures of Ghorgor the Ogre painter, huh, fighter.
With 3 more levels of fighter (at class equivalent +5 such as suggested by the DMG), the ogre would have been vastly superior to the other warrior types adventuring with him, though. Better AC, more damage, better atk bonus, reach etc. Better at everything that makes a fighter a fighter, basicly.
Last edited:
Similar Threads
