D&D 5E Ed Greenwood to write 5E's Forgotten Realms

[Salamandyr]

It seems to me that FR's focus on powerful NPC's has a lot to do with 2nd editions editorial stance toward storyline settings. Pretty much every campaign setting, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Dark Sun, suffered from it during the same time. Dark Sun may possibly be the worst. There's a whole module that consists of the players following the heroic NPC's as they overthrow the Sorcerer King. Bleh. Everything was a novel tie-in. TSR wanted campaign settings that were essentially storybooks, and you can't have a coherent storyline when you don't control the main characters.

I guess that, with the prominence of the Realms, that problem is just that turned up to 11. It doesn't seem like it was a huge problem in 1e, or 3e, or even 4th. It's just a bad taste left over from 2nd edition, and too many players believing that they have to let the novels influence their campaigns.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

My pitch is reset to day 1 box set, put a hard cap on all NPCs that they can't be higher then 2 levels below normal pc max (so if phb is 1-20 then npc cap at 18) make Elminster an immortal sage with only 1 or 2 spells, and lots of rituals.

Then the novels never work as cannon

 

[Janaxstrus]

I DM more then play, and as a dm the realms suck.

MY best example was i wanted to use the red wizards as a villan. I already had many problems in the campain, but when the PCs found out that at level 7 they had to stop a evoker 5/ red wizard 5 and her small army from invading a country... there answer was to instead of comeing up with a plan, go get symbol...

I can be more detailed, but point blank there are 100 high level NPCs in my hombrew world and none of them are expected to take center stage... but in fr there are 20+ ones that everyone feels should.


Run a game in ebberon no problem... dark sun same thing. 4e realms no problem... 1e-3e realmes JLM rules the world

It's The Simbul, fyi.

It's a testament to the world building itself that the players know and care about the NPCs that exist. That is why FR is my favorite setting. I couldn't give a rodent's backside about anyone in Eberron, Dark Sun or the 4e realms.
Pre-4e destroying the Forgotten Realms, I cared about the people, places and events that occurred. There was so much GOOD material, that it was great to DM. The players themselves knew locations, gods, NPCs, and things thta had happened, just like a PC that was born and raised there would. It was immersive.

None of my players, however, encountered the big bad NPCs. They never thought "We should go tell Elminster". They were the heroes. Those other people just existed elsewhere, doing their thing and saving the world their way. My players attitude was "We got this, we don't need their help"

 

[Zaukrie]

If you have a campaign world wit demots and dragons, you have uber powerful npcs, it is just in the realms, your characters know their names. I have never understood this dislike of powerful good guys in the realms, as that seems super realistic to me.

I agree, the neverwinter setting book for 4e is awesome.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

 

[avin]

Next there'll be a text block about how Elminster refuses to return the Lady of Pain's calls after he decided she was too needy.

Could we please let Her Serenity out of this mess?

 

[Drowbane]

...FR reinforces the notion that you aren't heroes, you're JANITORS...

My condolences for what your FR DM put you through. My experiences with the Realms have been great. Once Planescape came out, all of our campaigns eventually went out into the Planes. Perhaps this is the reason that our high level characters never gave a damn about "competing with Elminster".

My FR characters were HEROES, not janitors. Ok, some of them were semi-villainous... but my point stands.

Even if the Setting (Greenwood's influence) would dictate that the PCs must be lesser characters, and I do not believe they do, then it is still up to your DM to run the game. If he made your characters secondary, the failing is with him.

 

[IanB]

If you have a campaign world wit demots and dragons, you have uber powerful npcs, it is just in the realms, your characters know their names. I have never understood this dislike of powerful good guys in the realms, as that seems super realistic to me.

I agree, the neverwinter setting book for 4e is awesome.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

It actually goes well beyond just the name characters from the novels though; every little 2 line village description seems to include some level 23 wizard/archmage/odd multiclass combo person who just happens to live there.

 

[Incenjucar]

up to your DM

I consider this a design flaw.

I feel it should take an act of will on the DM's part to make a setting unpleasant. If a DM has to have particular skill to play the game as written in a way than is enjoyable then I feel the game is written poorly.

Mind you, I'm happy for people who like FR to have FR. But I don't know that I could ever be convinced to play in it as-written.

 

[an_idol_mind]

My lasting impression of the Forgotten Realms is that it's fun to play in but not so fun to talk about to many Realms fans.

I played and ran Forgotten Realms through much of 2nd edition and had a lot of fun with it. I used the 2nd edition boxed set, which was pretty cool. I'm pretty sure one of the books recommended marking up the maps to fit your game.

I remember one of my PCs getting into an argument with Elminster and throwing a punch at him. He connected and did only one point of damage, but rolled under the knockout chance on the punching and wrestling table. So Elminster went down.

When I told this story to some friends, I got referred to a half-dozen supplements that introduced things like Elminster being a Chosen of Mystra and his Elminster's evasion spell that would have nullified the encounter. But none of those supplements were in play - according to the boxed set, Elminster was 500 years old, an imbiber of potions of longevity, and the student of Arkhon the Old.

I responded with, "I guess Elminster forgot to cast his contingencies that day." Much gnashing of teeth occurred and I was informed that I sucked as a gamer.

Personally, I think the Realms is a lot of fun. The only reason I dropped them is because I got more invested in the homebrew I run. The only bad part about them is the number of fanatics who tell people they're doing it wrong - and those guys will be around no matter what happens to the setting.

(Minor note: Elminster got up in a few rounds and cooler heads prevailed.)

 

[Drowbane]

I consider this a design flaw...

Every aspect of any RPG is "up to your DM". If your DM happens to be an asshat, your game is in trouble. Using Elminster to make the PCs feel small = Asshat DM, regardless of what is and isn't written into the setting.

I'll look up that greybox module later to see if "Elminster showing up to heal the party" is even part of it... or if its something your DM used as a safety net.

 

[Herschel]

Why not back to before that Time of Troubles nonsense?

Darn straight! It should be photocopies of napkin notes from Ed's original game! (must spread XP and all that)

 

[Herschel]

I really disliked what 4E did with the Realms so I would hope that they fix that.

I have never understood the compliant about the high powered NPCs. First of all it is your game and you can choose how to use them or take them out completely.

The gaming police are not going to come and fine you for tweaking the Realms. And if you have players who can't deal with any changes to their beloved Realms well that is a player problem not a setting problem.

\
Conversely, there's nothing to "fix" with the 4E Realms, it's great. Just set your game in whichever era you want. Most of my Realms games (regardless of edition) are 4E setting but I have a 4E game set in the Gray Box era.

 

[an_idol_mind]

I'll look up that greybox module later to see if "Elminster showing up to heal the party" is even part of it... or if its something your DM used as a safety net.

The 2nd edition boxed set had Elminster pop in and accidentally heal the party. After a grueling series of encounters, the group finds Elminster (just described as an old man) trying to teach a dog to heel. Whenever he says "heel," his wand flickers and one of the PCs gets healed. The challenge is then to trick Elminster into saying "heel" enough times to heal the whole group.

Personally, I thought that was a good encounter. First of all, it came at a time when low-level characters likely needed some healing. Secondly, it showed Elminster as very powerful but also a bit senile, since he apparently had no idea that he was waving around a magic wand while trying to train a puppy in the middle of a perilous dungeon.

 

[Drowbane]

The 2nd edition boxed set had Elminster pop in and accidentally heal the party. After a grueling series of encounters, the group finds Elminster (just described as an old man) trying to teach a dog to heel. Whenever he says "heel," his wand flickers and one of the PCs gets healed. The challenge is then to trick Elminster into saying "heel" enough times to heal the whole group.

Personally, I thought that was a good encounter. First of all, it came at a time when low-level characters likely needed some healing. Secondly, it showed Elminster as very powerful but also a bit senile, since he apparently had no idea that he was waving around a magic wand while trying to train a puppy in the middle of a perilous dungeon.

Ah, interesting. Your portrayal does not seem so one sided.

I like the powerful yet senile mage archetype (aka, Fizban).

 

[delericho]

I have little patience with 1st level characters who think they're the Kings of the World. You want to deal with the kinds of problems that Elminster is dealing with? Work for it. You want to be as important as Han Solo? Earn it.

Except that they can't, ever.

Elminster is built with a whole bunch of specialised templates and rules exceptions such that it is impossible for a character to start at 1st level RAW and advance to match him.

Likewise, while Han Solo is typically presented in such a manner as to be technically rules-legal, his stats are so incredibly high that you would need to use random rolls and cheat to have a hope of matching him. Under the recommended chargen method from the books (and, incidentally, the required method for organised play), it is not possible to generate a "1st level Han".

The iconic characters in these settings are out of reach for PCs in the games intended to replicate their adventures.

But anyway...

"Oh no! My viking PC is totally trivialized by the existence of Thor!"

My big objection is not so much the existence of those high-level NPCs. It's that the text I quoted makes it clear that whatever they do, the PCs are largely irrelevant.

They saved the village? Why, if it weren't for Elminster, there wouldn't even be a village to save!

In fact, the only reason there are even adventures for the PCs to have is that the problems they solve are not important enough for Elminster to bother with.

It makes the PCs sidekicks in their own story. As I said, that text has no business being anywhere near a 5e Realms book.

 

[KesselZero]

I like the Realms; I've enjoyed a fair number of the novels and play a lot of Living Forgotten Realms nowadays. Those adventures tend to completely ignore the Big Name NPCs but still let the PCs affect the world, which is nice. Meanwhile the new season of Encounters featured Elminster personally speaking in the mind of my PC... a first-level kobold rogue. Like, really? He tells you to go get a MacGuffin then won't answer any questions. It feels super forced and awkward.

But my favorite game set in the Realms is neither of those. In it we've spent almost a year of real life time trekking from Murann to Athkatla, which we all constantly mispronounce as Athkatal. We saved Athkatla from being secretly controlled by the Shadow Thieves, who had infiltrated the leadership of the Church of Waukeen. We're currently questing to help our fighter create a legendary weapon that can slay a certain lich, and we picked up the claw of a Spellscarred Roc in the Cloud Peaks. After that we talked about swinging by Candlekeep just to check it out on our way north to Baldur's Gate but decided instead to pass between the Werewoods and the Snakewood to Scornubel, where one of our PCs is from. Oh, and I randomly tossed a die onto a big poster map of the Realms that our friend printed at work to see where my character is from, and it landed on Dambrath, which has a cool history of once being ruled by drow, but afterthe Spellplague was freed by a uprising of other races.

If Drizzt or Elminster or anybody else ever appears in our game I will probably poop my pants right there in Don's living room. We use the Realms as a fully-realized, deep-historied setting for our own games, about our PCs and what they want to achieve. The Realms has a heavy sense of place, of almost-reality, that serves as an inspiring backdrop to our stories, none of which have anything to do with going to Elminster for help solving our personal issues.

That said, reverse the Spellplague please.

 

[Incenjucar]

Every aspect of any RPG is "up to your DM". If your DM happens to be an asshat, your game is in trouble. Using Elminster to make the PCs feel small = Asshat DM, regardless of what is and isn't written into the setting.

Nah. A well-designed game is like Skill Focus. It won't make someone who took DMing as their dump stat good, but it will help someone who is mediocre pull off something good, and makes it easy for someone who is good to knock it out of the park.

And someone already filled you in on the horrible Elminster healing thing so yeah.

 

[Elf Witch]

\
Conversely, there's nothing to "fix" with the 4E Realms, it's great. Just set your game in whichever era you want. Most of my Realms games (regardless of edition) are 4E setting but I have a 4E game set in the Gray Box era.

I would not mind if they did what they did with Dragonlance and let you choose what time you want to play in.

I just hope that the setting does not only have the stuff from 4e which imo ruined the Realms.

 

[Rogue Agent]

Elminster is built with a whole bunch of specialised templates and rules exceptions such that it is impossible for a character to start at 1st level RAW and advance to match him.

That's a separate issue (which also hasn't been true for all versions of the Realms) and has nothing to do with what your originally quoted.

My big objection is not so much the existence of those high-level NPCs. It's that the text I quoted makes it clear that whatever they do, the PCs are largely irrelevant.

The text actually says the exact opposite of that.

It's like claiming that any RPG set in the latter half of the 20th century makes the PCs "largely irrelevant" because other people have the power to declare nuclear war and render their accomplishments moot. (And if you actually believe that, you must not have a very high opinion of your own, apparently irrelevant life.)

I remain unimpressed with the whining.

 

[Fenes]

I would not mind if they did what they did with Dragonlance and let you choose what time you want to play in.

I just hope that the setting does not only have the stuff from 4e which imo ruined the Realms.

You're not the omly one. 4E wrecked the Realms, and replaced detailed regions with barely-described clichee. The Realms are not 3 books, are not entire regions reduced to a single paragraph which offers no real information, but a tapestry of history and details that make a region come alive.