Effect of axial tilt on a planet

Ferret said:
Just a small hi-jack whilst people in the know are about: How does the 'planet' being a moon effect seasons and day etc, I started a discussion on it before and I don't think the answers were what I wanted. Given that it isn't tidally locked, and its going round a brown giant (?)

Right. Well, let's see. Mind if I make some assumptions?

Let us assume, for the moment, the real energy source is the system's sun, and not the brown dwarf.

Assume the moon's day is notably shorter than it's orbit time around it's planet. Assume the orbit around the planet is notably shorter than the planet's year.

Now, what you have is, in essence, a planet with normal seasons, but which experiences occasional long eclipses. Nothing complicated there, really.

If the brown dwarf's energy contribution is notable compared to the star's, then what happens depends upon the relation. We can range from the solar year being the seasonal period (as above) to having the "month" be the seasonal period (if the sun is a small dot, and all the energy comes from the brown dwarf.

When the two give comparable contrabutions, you wander into the realm of unpredictable results. When you try to drive a system with two sources, and the two sources vary with different frequencies, you're wandering into the realm of chaos (in the mathematical sense - as in Chaos Theory).
 

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Cool question and great answers. I don't have much to add other than I wish I could have gotten some of you to reply to my "land planet" thread a while back. World design is so cool and I'd like to get more into the science of it, but haven't found much in the way of introductory material on the subjects in question.
 

Aristotle said:
Cool question and great answers. I don't have much to add other than I wish I could have gotten some of you to reply to my "land planet" thread a while back. World design is so cool and I'd like to get more into the science of it, but haven't found much in the way of introductory material on the subjects in question.
Well, my original question is pretty well answered -- why don't you go ahead and repost the question here in this thread? I think it falls under the same general aegis of planetary science and it's impact on campaign settings. While the thread still has everyone's attention (more or less) maybe we can have some good discussion around it.
 

okay then...

I was working on a planet with no true oceans. A planet that was mostly land. I was thinking of making it small, say about the size of mars, so it would have roughly the same land surface area as the Earth. My concern was that I didn't want it to be a desert world or an ice ball, and those seem to be the most likely choices for the planet I am describing. I was hoping to find some science to explain why my world is the way it is. Of course the science doesn't need to be overly deep. It's a fantasy world and I'm fine with "it's magic" being the final verdict.

I was looking at including 4 primary biomes (there would be rivers, forests, and such in each as appropriate). There would be a large desert area with no seasonal change other than hot days and cold nights. I was guessing the best place for this was a pole (likely leaning towards the sun). There would be a vast grassland/savannah dominating a large portion of the world. It would be covered in seas of grass from two to six feet tall. It would be warm year round, with an annual wet season (possibly a cascading wet season since the area is so big?) that floods the lower plains. Then there would be a swamp area (swamps, bogs, everglades, or whatever) with a great deal of shallow standing water. And lastly there would be a large forbidding rainforest region. It would be warm year round with a short season of high heat. It would be littered with lakes and streams fed by near continuous rainfall.

Mountains and canyons are common throughout all 4 areas. Earthquakes are frequent and volcanic activity is fairly regular in remote locations. Rivers, some much larger than anything we have on Earth, can be found in all areas. There are many small and large rivers in and near the jungle and swamp areas. Fewer in the grasslands (except during the wet season), and only a couple in the desert. I figure many of them start in the mountains and the rainforest, and most of that water makes it's way to the swamp region, collecting minerals and becoming more and more brackish as it goes until it finally becomes unusable near the swamp area.

Uh... that's mostly it.
 

Aristotle said:
I was working on a planet with no true oceans. A planet that was mostly land. I was thinking of making it small, say about the size of mars, so it would have roughly the same land surface area as the Earth. My concern was that I didn't want it to be a desert world or an ice ball, and those seem to be the most likely choices for the planet I am describing. I was hoping to find some science to explain why my world is the way it is. Of course the science doesn't need to be overly deep. It's a fantasy world and I'm fine with "it's magic" being the final verdict.

on first look my thought was that a high ammount of volcanism would be needed to maintain the planet at a temperate level. there are some problems with high volcansim to low/ocean area though - the biggest one is of oxygen generation, the second largest being of co2 removal.... but we'll skip that for now, this is a kind of nitpicky detail that would get really annoying to try and figure out for a game.

Aristotle said:
I was looking at including 4 primary biomes (there would be rivers, forests, and such in each as appropriate). There would be a large desert area with no seasonal change other than hot days and cold nights. I was guessing the best place for this was a pole (likely leaning towards the sun). There would be a vast grassland/savannah dominating a large portion of the world. It would be covered in seas of grass from two to six feet tall. It would be warm year round, with an annual wet season (possibly a cascading wet season since the area is so big?) that floods the lower plains. Then there would be a swamp area (swamps, bogs, everglades, or whatever) with a great deal of shallow standing water. And lastly there would be a large forbidding rainforest region. It would be warm year round with a short season of high heat. It would be littered with lakes and streams fed by near continuous rainfall.

the problem with the ammount of rainfall you are describing is the lack of oceans to generate all the arial moisture - for a good solid raincloud, you need heat and standing water in the same place.

my suggestion here is to look at a map from the book Blue Mars, by Kim Stanley Robinson - it showss a possible result of a martian terraforming effort, where the surface is approximatly 70% land area, and 30% ocean. mars, in this case, is neither warm nor wet, but it is viable for life.

how to change this up? there's a couple of different (though, honestly, not-really game affecting ways) things you could do:
1) put your planet closer to the sun than mars is - earth-like distance is perfect for an active hydrosphere
2) go back in time - the planet should be younger!
3) give mars a more iron-rich and dense core, and make that core still spin (as earth's) to generate a magnetic feild - this will decrease ambient radiation (not by too much), and stimulate plate tectonics (so that you get high volcanism).

Aristotle said:
Mountains and canyons are common throughout all 4 areas. Earthquakes are frequent and volcanic activity is fairly regular in remote locations. Rivers, some much larger than anything we have on Earth, can be found in all areas. There are many small and large rivers in and near the jungle and swamp areas. Fewer in the grasslands (except during the wet season), and only a couple in the desert. I figure many of them start in the mountains and the rainforest, and most of that water makes it's way to the swamp region, collecting minerals and becoming more and more brackish as it goes until it finally becomes unusable near the swamp area.

at this point i'd really tell you to go read the mars trilogy by kim stanley robinson, if you have time.


honestly, rather than trying to scientificaly explain it, i'd go with an "it's magic" and remember the important differences between a mars-type world and an earth-type:

the horizons will be signifigantly closer.

gravity will be less - jumps will be easier, falling damage less

the atmosphere will be thicker at higher altitudes - gravity doesn't hold the air down so much
 

Is there a map online of the Blue Mars era Mars? I'd love to see it, if so. I read about half of Red Mars a while ago, but got too busy to finish. I'd like to get back into that series some day.
 


yes actually, it's in the front cover of blue mars - though i havn't actually found an image of it on the net anywhere

there's some other neet things i've found online about terraformed mars, also:

* http://www.celestiamotherlode.net/catalog/fictional.php *
a nice pretty map of mars terraformed can be found near the bottom of this page.

* http://www.xs4all.nl/~fwb/rgblinks.html *
whole bunch of mars-terraforming links

* http://norre.dalporten.com/y7k4/mars/mars3.html *
a neet false color topographical map of a terraformed mars - also terraformed venus, if you are interested

* http://www.chromecow.com/howtos/mars/terraforming.htm *
another map of a terraformed mars, in color. shows the whole process the guy went through to make it pretty. definetly fun to look at, if not very scientific.



Joshua Dyal said:
Is there a map online of the Blue Mars era Mars? I'd love to see it, if so. I read about half of Red Mars a while ago, but got too busy to finish. I'd like to get back into that series some day.
 

lgburton said:
the problem with the ammount of rainfall you are describing is the lack of oceans to generate all the arial moisture - for a good solid raincloud, you need heat and standing water in the same place.
I know what you are saying. The whole planet is supposed to be hot so I have the heat (I see that poses a problem too, but we'll get to that later). Water is obviously the primary issue with my land planet idea. My question is, does the water need to be oceanic in depth? Let's say my "swampland", which is mostly flooded with large boggy archipelegos here and there, covers 20% of the planet. Sure, there are large portions of it that are only 10 to 50 feet in depth, but I could see there being large canyons 3 or 4 hundred feet deep scarring the surface beneath the water. Perhaps it's even fed by additional sources of underground water. In a sense it becomes a shallow, stagnant, ocean without tides. Which reminds me, did I mention the lack of a moon?

Let's say my rivers and lakes/seas cover another 5%. Am I anywhere even passably close to being "acceptable if not improbable" at that point? You're right, saying it's magic is likely the easiest approach, and to a point I'm doing that. I don't expect my land planet to be scientifically feasible so much as I want it to be believable at first pass.

I was also playing with the idea of massive geyser fields in areas of significant seismic activity constantly pumping vapor into the air.

Thanks for the recomended reading. I'll be looking into it.
 

that's a pretty nice one! the difference between the two hemispheres on mars is really astounding.

the only problem with the KSR map is that it also includes storyline features of the changed mars... so if you havn't read the series, it might be rather confusing (or give away too much).

Joshua Dyal said:
Here's a map of a terraformed Mars I found; although it's not Kim Stanley Robinson's version, it's still pretty interesting.

http://www.redcolony.com/features.php?name=map

One thing to keep in mind, though, Mars has very unusual geography, with the northern hemisphere have a significantly lower average elevation than the Southern.
 

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