EGG on 'The Spirit of AD&D'

"Commoners = goodly people" is very setting dependent.

I run Stormbringer and Warhammer where almost everyone's a dirty rat bastard. Often, the PCs are still true heroes in the face of these facts.

When I ran my Diablo D&D, then "commoners = goodly people" because by comparison to the roving demonic nightmares devouring the living, even Scuzzbert looks pretty good. And you can bet that anyone who actually stood against the demons became a celebrity in that town.

It is good GM advice that if you want a certain behavior from your players, you need to actively REWARD that behavior in the game. You can't demand it, but you can heap kudos on the players when they act according to the tone of your game.
 

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Griffith Dragonlake said:
This is one of the most inspiring ideas I have read on ENworld for quite some time. You have given me some things to think about and I really appreciate that.

Thank you, and always glad to help. :)

I've also found EN World somewhat less inspiring since the 4e announcement. But, by focusing my attention off of 4e, I've managed to find some good threads to read/post in again. :cool:

RC
 


Hussar said:
S'mon, I don't think you even have to blame Post Modern theory for this. Fantasy, in general, has long been uncomfortable with the idea that it's okay to simply go into something's home and kill it. Morally ambiguous modern fantasy has a very long tradition. From Frankenstein onward, you have heaps of works that paint humans in a pretty damning light.

The idea that humans are generally good is, frankly, pretty far removed from a lot of fantasy.

And, of more relevance, a lot of the fantasy characters who purportedly inspired D&D in the first place!

Conan? Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser? Elric of Melnibone? None of them very 'heroic' by nature. Tolkein had heroic humans (Aragorn) and not-as-heroic humans (Boromir) and completely despicable humans (Grima Wormtongue) in equal measure (armies of Gondor and Rohan, armies of 'Southrons' serving Sauron).

Holger, the Paladin from Three Hearts and Three Lions, was heroic, but was the exception, not the rule.

Are humans the source of all evil? Well, in the real world, duh. It's not like animals, vegetables and minerals can be evil. But in a fantasy world, evil elves (including Drow, a primarily evil subrace), dwarves (inc Duergar).
 

Gygax is semi-wrong.

We are at default and majority neutral; humanity is apathic, self-concerned and agressive neutral.

Dragonlance pegged it well.
 

It matches my homebrews...

S'mon said:
I think this brings out the conflict between the Gygaxian perspective, embodied in Keep on the Borderlands and Against the Giants - ie other races are bad, go into their homes and kill them - and (post)modern norms influenced by the Deconstruction/Critical Theory that American kids are subject to in college. You don't have to go so far as having it that "Humans are the Cancer of History" (to paraphrase Susan Sontag) in your campaign world, to be a bit uneasy with the Gygaxian approach.

While over simplified, the key thing about this is that it facilitates game play. A lot of time, you want to just kick but...and this is a way to do it.

Humancentricism is also convenient, since we are actually human. As a side benefit, it actually preserves the "specialness" of the non-human races (and pcs). If you are always in elf-land--elve who act basically like humans--whats the point?

Back to EGG. He had plenty of human (and demi human) bad guys, and they feature prominantly in at least a few adventures. Best example is the Village of Hommlet.
 

TerraDave said:
While over simplified, the key thing about this is that it facilitates game play. A lot of time, you want to just kick but...and this is a way to do it.

Yes, I agree - the Gyggaxian approach gives a viable model for long-term play in a way few RPGs manage, IMO.
 


Raven Crowking said:
I've also found EN World somewhat less inspiring since the 4e announcement. But, by focusing my attention off of 4e, I've managed to find some good threads to read/post in again. :cool:

Nod. I bowed out of the 4e discussion completely. WOTC will do what it wants regardless of what I say, and I'll buy the basic books and see if I want to port over to it when it comes out. Seems most like people are in wait-and-see mode (N), some are all for it sight unseen, and some hate it sight unseen.
 

Raven Crowking said:
I am always amazed by the number of DMs who bemoan the unheroic actions of their players, while providing them with a world in which heroism is not only not encouraged, but is actively punished.

It is not only true that the average person must be worth protecting in order to make heroic play rewarding, but it must be true that the players see this in action. NPCs should offer the PCs what little they have, not just as a reward, but because it is the right thing to do. They should offer to sleep in the barn so that the PCs can take their house (and they should be grateful when the PCs opt to sleep in the barn themselves). They should offer simple, but good, food, without expecting anything in return.

We may live in a culture where deceit and selfishness are virtues, but for the average commoner in a D&D world, deceit and selfishness are deadly.

First off, most commoners don't travel very far from their homes -- they have to live with, and rely on, the same folks for all their lives. A reputation for lying or stealing will not serve them in good stead. It is hard to overstate the importance of reputation in a pre-industrial world. Secondly, most commoners in a D&D world rely on shared resources: grazing commons, mill, millpond, storage facilities, and even to some extent arable land (for hay, if for nothing else). Thirdly, most commoners in a D&D world live in areas where punishment for infractions is swift, seldom codified, and can be made to fit the crime; there is a real imperative not to steal your neighbour's pig when the local lord can take all your livestock as a result. Finally, reliance on each other is necessary for protection in a D&D world. Not only is a group of commoners more effective against wolves than a single commoner, but by fulfilling their obligations to their local lord, they gain the right to his protection.

Among other things, this allows you (as DM) to demonstrate:

(1) The city, with its relative anonymity, is different than the country. Because everyone in a village knows each other, they behave in a certain way. In a city, it is easier to fleece the unsuspecting and still get the support you need to survive.

(2) Reputation matters. Threaten Bob the Innkeep, and you discover that you've threatened the whole village. Doors close to you that might otherwise have been open. Prices inflate everywhere. No one likes you, except that shady guy who was socially ostracized before.

(3) Feudalism is a protection racket. Actually carry out your threat against Bob the Innkeep, and all hands are against you. You are a wanted outlaw, with soldiers combing the local woodlands for your capture.

(4) Reputation matters (part 2). When Scuzzbert the Thief steals your magic sword, and it is your word against his with the local lord, it is gratifying that the entire village rises to defend your word. More gratifying still is the moment that Scuzzbert's feet stop twitching on the gallows, and he is left to the ravens.

(5) That protection racket goes both ways. As a party rises in power, the local political players/powers woo the PCs with gifts and honorifics. If the PCs return these overtures, they can make strong alliances that lead to increased security at home (and more adventure as they aid their allies to deal with problems they are having). Players can certainly be encouraged to begin this process, btw.

Another bonus is that the treacherous NPC, when used sparingly, is actually effective. This factor alone makes Gary's methodology worthwhile, IMHO.

This is very similar, btw, to DMs who want their players to talk to monsters instead of just wading in with spells and swords blazing. If you want that, you have to provide an environment that nurtures and rewards it. You have to demonstrate that it is worth doing. You have to demonstrate the pitfalls of the opposite approach.

IMHO, at least.


RC
*clap, clap, clap, clap, clap*

Well said!
 

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