Eldritch Blast and Repelling Blast - One time or Each Hit?

delph

Explorer
If you pick up a feat, and three invocations, a multiclass and a consumable resource you deserve to get something good.

But the truth is, a range of 1200 feet is pointless unless you also have telescopic vision. It's further than you can see, and a lot longer than any dungeon corrador.
1 feat, 1 mutliclass, 1 invocation, no resources ...

and it's around 360 meters - that's length you can see in the wide country or sky, and with spellsniper you have no limitation by length an ignore 3/4 cover. Just depend on what adventure you play.
 

clearstream

Explorer
Maybe I misunderstood.

One case brought up was using EB with repelling to move a tanky guy out of the way so melee strikers could approach a non-tanky ranged guy.

Moving a tanky guy 10' should be sufficient to open that gap. You dont need to move folks 30' or so yo open a gap for melee guys. Hevh, all you really need is any number of ways to must step to bypass the whole problem and thst kicks in by late tier-1 to mid-trir-2 but for the case isnt 10 enough batting helpful terrain?

So it wont help to limit it to 10', at least not as a rule. Its possible of voursecfor that rule change plus certain terrain features to do so, just like its possible for terrain alone to do so.
That's what I thought. It does help to limit it to 10'.

Are you supposing that the positioning is crucial down to the 5' square, like in a phalanx, and that the turn order is neatly set up so that the warlock shove comes before the relevant ally, but after the NPC tank? I don't recall hitting that sort of exacting set up in play.
 

5ekyu

Adventurer
That's what I thought. It does help to limit it to 10'.

Are you supposing that the positioning is crucial down to the 5' square, like in a phalanx, and that the turn order is neatly set up so that the warlock shove comes before the relevant ally, but after the NPC tank? I don't recall hitting that sort of exacting set up in play.
Nope I am presuming a variety of cases where initiative would work out - because obviously, the tactic would not be used in specifics where it would not work. Other options would be chosen.

But, simply put, the use case still exists. Sounds like you are accounting for only cases where 10' wont work but some higher distance would, which, given 5e rules, is a subset - maybe small, maybe large - depending on table and norms.

But once we start sorting by favorable circumstances and terrain, it might not be an issue at all.

But as always, if st your table the big problem is movement more than 10' situations specifically... if that narrow a case would solve all the issues that is just incredible!!!

It just seems a much more narrow problem that I had thought was being described.
 

clearstream

Explorer
Nope I am presuming a variety of cases where initiative would work out - because obviously, the tactic would not be used in specifics where it would not work. Other options would be chosen.
So, okay, you are characterising the cases to support your argument and everyone does that. I think saying that a case is more specific ("specifics where it would not work") entails that initiative orders that would work out are more common than those that would not work out.

My experience from play is at odds with that claim and I think it is easy to see why. For the claim to be true the warlock goes before the ally AND the ally goes before the foe. Label them 0 (warlock), 1 (ally), and 2 (foe). Treat initiative as modular.

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There are three cases fitting the claim.

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There are three cases contradicting the claim: neither order is more specific.

Once the other requirements are layered on, cases where the cantrip remains problematic (after the change) are many times more specific than cases where it does not. And that chimes with what I found in play at the table over a great many encounters. Perhaps reducing to 10' allows the tactic to still be used in the narrow case you describe: for me, an ability that very rarely causes a problem is non-egregious compared with one that very often causes a problem.
 
1 feat, 1 mutliclass, 1 invocation, no resources …
Nope, this was multiclassed to sorcerer and using distant spell.

And, whist Eldritch Spear is one invocation, Repelling Blast and Agonising Blast are also required to make it work.

and it's around 360 meters - that's length you can see in the wide country or sky, and with spellsniper you have no limitation by length an ignore 3/4 cover. Just depend on what adventure you play.
I don't think I've ever had an encounter in "wide country". Most encounters take place in gloomy dungeons where most characters can see around 60 feet.

I've always felt that Spell Sniper and Eldritch Spear where things that sounded good but where of no practical use.
 

clearstream

Explorer
I've always felt that Spell Sniper and Eldritch Spear where things that sounded good but where of no practical use.
Yup, they are kind of contextual. I had an encounter in a Colosseum sort of setup where spear shone, and one or two other cases, but as you say not much practical use in gloomy dungeons. Potentially reasonable in an urban campaign, when outdoor (say on rooftops).
 
I would say that an urban campaign is the last place long range spells are useful, even on rooftops, which tend to be on lots of different levels and have lots of cover like chimneys, turrets, gables, etc.
 

delph

Explorer
Yup, they are kind of contextual. I had an encounter in a Colosseum sort of setup where spear shone, and one or two other cases, but as you say not much practical use in gloomy dungeons. Potentially reasonable in an urban campaign, when outdoor (say on rooftops).
I would say that an urban campaign is the last place long range spells are useful, even on rooftops, which tend to be on lots of different levels and have lots of cover like chimneys, turrets, gables, etc.
And that's it - I have mentioned this option because someone wrote: "crossbow have bigger range" or something like this.

And in one campaign our warlock has an eldritch spear and fly... go above the battlefield , higher than range of enemies and shoot them, all...

for some place and settings are some spell very useful or useles.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
I find Spell Sniper, EB with either Repelling Blast or Eldritch Blast and Eldritch Spear, are most effective on NPC's that I throw at my party from time to time in urban settings.

You know, with Hex up, and the Warlock getting paid to take out the party or people close to the party but they don't want to get close :p

Pull that princess off the balcony with the PC's standing next to her from 4 roofs away, kind of thing.

Otherwise, I've found the full combination is too much to expect or see much use on a PC. Unless THEY'RE getting paid to do that to people too :)
 

clearstream

Explorer
I would say that an urban campaign is the last place long range spells are useful, even on rooftops, which tend to be on lots of different levels and have lots of cover like chimneys, turrets, gables, etc.
When I look at people's battle maps for Waterdeep, or think about the many encounters that took place in my OOTA campaign in mapped urban areas, the sight lines are frequently hundreds of feet long. Elevations and details of cover are not so well indicated, so a DM could have to make a ruling on those. Surprise attacks (ambushes on moving targets) are well enabled by the extra range. YMMV I guess.

EDIT as an afterthought, this seems to reveal how different our groups' approaches are! I think "range - great for urban rooftops" and you think "range - irrelevant for urban rooftops". Makes any eventual agreement on repelling blast unlikely...
 

5ekyu

Adventurer
So, okay, you are characterising the cases to support your argument and everyone does that. I think saying that a case is more specific ("specifics where it would not work") entails that initiative orders that would work out are more common than those that would not work out.

My experience from play is at odds with that claim and I think it is easy to see why. For the claim to be true the warlock goes before the ally AND the ally goes before the foe. Label them 0 (warlock), 1 (ally), and 2 (foe). Treat initiative as modular.

012
120
201

There are three cases fitting the claim.

021
210
102

There are three cases contradicting the claim: neither order is more specific.

Once the other requirements are layered on, cases where the cantrip remains problematic (after the change) are many times more specific than cases where it does not. And that chimes with what I found in play at the table over a great many encounters. Perhaps reducing to 10' allows the tactic to still be used in the narrow case you describe: for me, an ability that very rarely causes a problem is non-egregious compared with one that very often causes a problem.
Except of course that thexwsrlock can ready to shoot when the striker moves to 10' rangen of the tanker, so that that shot always goes on thst strikers turn as a ready action just when they need it.

Like somebody ssid, these things might show some lack of experience by some.

But since noth are going off on the strike's turn, the init order doesnt seem all that critical.
 

5ekyu

Adventurer
Nope, this was multiclassed to sorcerer and using distant spell.

And, whist Eldritch Spear is one invocation, Repelling Blast and Agonising Blast are also required to make it work.



I don't think I've ever had an encounter in "wide country". Most encounters take place in gloomy dungeons where most characters can see around 60 feet.

I've always felt that Spell Sniper and Eldritch Spear where things that sounded good but where of no practical use.
Mine are often outside, but rarely in a desert, so usually somebody has ducked into tree cover.
 

Stalker0

Adventurer
I don't think I've ever had an encounter in "wide country". Most encounters take place in gloomy dungeons where most characters can see around 60 feet.
All depends on the campaign. For example, much of my current campaign is "overland"...so large open plains and the like are common battlegrounds. Whereas in my last campaign, yeah it was all dungeonscape.
 

delph

Explorer
All depends on the campaign. For example, much of my current campaign is "overland"...so large open plains and the like are common battlegrounds. Whereas in my last campaign, yeah it was all dungeonscape.
Yes, last one was Tomb of Anihilation - no use for this "combo", Now we are in Waterdeep, and had some work on roofs and streets. Cast repeling blast to someone on roof 3 streets far away, will be nasty surprise
 

clearstream

Explorer
Except of course that thexwsrlock can ready to shoot when the striker moves to 10' rangen of the tanker, so that that shot always goes on thst strikers turn as a ready action just when they need it.

Like somebody ssid, these things might show some lack of experience by some.

But since noth are going off on the strike's turn, the init order doesnt seem all that critical.
Sure, one could ready the spell, set the trigger to the ally's free action ("blast"), hold concentration and cast with your reaction. That didn't happen much for us as the warlock was typically holding greater invisibility or some other advantageous buff or debuff, and (now that I think of it) also wanted to have the reaction available for other purposes.
 
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ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
Shouldn't there be a saving throw involved? Or a strecngth check at least, or a dex check to catch the fall? What if there is a fixed wall behind the pushed opponent? Would he not take additional damage? I know these topics came along with thunderwave or what it is called and such, but is the to hit roll of the eldritch blast enough? Imagine if you got three blasts them, then it is almost a sure bet to hit at least once, that is a real killer then.
What I try to express is: it is not a 9nth level spell causing this and there is asumingly no save on the targeted party, no matter if it is a hill giant, titan or whatever, it is sent flying by a cantrip?
If you use the shove action (PHB p195) in place of an attack, the targets does one contested skill test each push. A fighter can push 5 times in one round to push an enemy off a cliff.

Eldritch blast has to roll to hit contested by AC (to include shield spell and defensive abilities like Defensive Duelist) for one check to see it they are hit and the ability takes effect.

As a rule, Proficiency in Athletics or Acrobatics is more rare than a dissent AC because everyone has to be prepared in some way to take an attack but skills can be limited to about 4/18 and many players will look for something more flavorful. A Rogue scout might have four but could easily take, stealth, slight of hand, perception, and investigation in order to scout for traps and be a dirty thief. So as a dex based class that could be good at Acrobatics tests, they have a +5 to a random 1-20 roll do defend against a fighter who if they built with this in mind likely could have athletics for up to +11 for the same test. There is also a number of ways to get advantage on athletics tests and most of the rogue abilities like Evasion and uncanny dodge will not help the rogue vs a contested skill test. The same rogue with +5 from dex adds that to a stead AC17 and could also have static defensive bonuses like +1 -3 armor, a shield (buckler) +1-3, the Defensive Duelist for a reaction of +2-6 to AC and these are all pretty common. They could have an AC15 - AC27 with a reaction to raise it to AC33... depending on their investment on defense.

My point is every enemy is different but almost every player character and NPC has some level of defense making AC stronger against these types of attacks. So before I would consider nerfing Repelling blast which while it is a cantrip, is also a core part of the warlock class design, I would consider am I going to nerf fighters or barbarians trying to knock enemies off cliffs who have to do it in melee but have a greater chance of success? I would also consider @Paul Farquhar's two points. 1. "Creative use of the terrain is part of the game." and 2. "Moral: don't stand near the edges of cliffs". The implication of nerfing an ability clearly designed for this style of play and utility knowing that a player invested two core features of their class (Eldritch blast warlock spell and Eldritch invocation to add this feature) be cause of an off chance they use it strategically in a rare situation where it would actually work, gives me pause. In fact, I have played his warlock and it never game up in the campaign.. not once. Because we never fought in elevated terrain. Usually in caves, buildings, and level ground. So I would be more inclined as GM to put NPC minions on the edge of cliffs just to encourage this style of play. To get warlocks, fighter, and barbarians throwing enemies off cliffs by any means at there disposal. I would also through in a few casters with feather fall, teleport spells, fly, and polymorph.... because not everyone thrown off a cliff is going to die. These feels like an opportunity for me to expand my skill set as a GM use skills that I might not normally use in NPCs. It might be interesting to have a cliff battle with aarakocra, Protector Aasimar, Winged Tiefling Variant, or one of the 4 sorcerer subclasses that gain flight as an innate agility (AberrantMind, DivineSoul, DraconicBloodline, and StormSorcery).

I feel like saying, "this hurts my game" is often a restriction we put on our selves that can be fixed with "unless I....!!" which results in more fun and me binging a better GM that responds to players instead of surprising them from doing what they want.
 

coolAlias

Explorer
If you use the shove action (PHB p195) in place of an attack, the targets does one contested skill test each push. A fighter can push 5 times in one round to push an enemy off a cliff.
I think the biggest issue is that while a fighter can push up to 5 times with no resources, their shoves are not also inflicting damage at the same time, and they have to be in melee range, and the target has to be no more than one size larger, and they have to use their movement if they want to shove more than 5' distance.

That's a lot of extra conditions.

Also, as others have pointed out, usually an attack rider allows a saving throw to avoid it, even though there was already an attack roll made to inflict damage.

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on repelling blast as I haven't seen it in play yet (no warlock lovers in my crowd, I guess), but even without specific scenarios I can see that some might be inclined to take it down a notch simply to bring it more in line with other cantrips and abilities.

Nothing wrong with that, even if you or I or anyone else happens to disagree.
 

5ekyu

Adventurer
Sure, one could ready the spell, set the trigger to the ally's free action ("blast"), hold concentration and cast with your reaction. That didn't happen much for us as the warlock was typically holding greater invisibility or some other advantageous buff or debuff, and (now that I think of it) also wanted to have the reaction available for other purposes.
So, all this change would fo thrn is chsnge up dome of the other tactics to keep it doing what is doing now.

Hey, if fhars good enough for your table to call it a "fix" then all I can say again is that thats fine and dandy and I am glad you found a house tule that "fixes" your table's issues with the warlock class.

Now as long as nobody figures out all the other ways st tier-3 etc somebody can just skip over that screen line, y'all should I hope be great.
 

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