Eldritch Knight strategies

[KarinsDad]

50+? I would like to see the math on that for a 10th level PC; higher sure…but at 10th level with the levels you must have with those classes? I am not so sure – leaving room for the fact I may be wrong. If he “can” do that - so can my Fighter with a crit using power attack alone or mixed with any other sorts of feats that increase damage.

The difference between a crit and the Channel Spell ability is as follows:

1) You cannot just decide to do a crit this round. It only happens infrequently when the dice allow for it.

2) You cannot have a weapon prepared ahead of time to do 50+ damage like you can with Channel Spell. You can put Scorching Ray into the weapon and it stays that way for 8 hours.


The math for this particular character is:

18 Strength character with +1 Maul does 2D8 + 7 averages 16 points (Monkey Grip feat)

2 Scorching Rays with Channel Spell averages 28 points of damage

So, this is only 44 points of damage on average if he does not critical, 88 points of damage if he does.

This does not include his Fist of Stone spell (+4 more damage), his Enlarge spell (+5.5 more damage stronger and larger weaopn, +6.5 if combined with Fist of Stone), his Arcane Strike feat (+1D4 to +3D4 depending) and his Power Attack feat (upwards of 12 more damage).

Full out he can average 74 points of damage, 148 on a critical and still be +10 to hit with this mega-attack.


But, if he needs to do serious damage and does not have time to prep with spells, he can do an attack in a single round for 2D8 + 7 (Maul) + 8D6 (Channel Spell Scorching Ray) + 3D4 (Arcane Strike third level spell) for an average of 51.5 points of damage and he will be at +14 to hit. If he misses the attack, he loses the Arcane Strike (unless he gets a successful AoO later in the round), but the main 44 point damage Channel Spell attack lasts until he does hit.

When his caster level gets to 11, his Channel Spell Scorching Ray will go from 8D6 to 12D6.

Plus, he can throw Haste into the mix.


Granted, he can only do this a few times per day. But then again, when you absolutely postively have to do serious damage to a single opponent, would you prefer to be doing 25 points like the Power Attacking Fighter or 50 points like the Channel Spell Arcane Strike Spellsword?

 

[KarinsDad]

But at what cost? Every spell you choose means there are those you can’t, when your spells wear off??? Most feats work all the time; every time. I have battled EK types before; they never won. They hurt my PC; near the edge of death; but never won. Why? Because whilst they blasted my PC with a spell or whatever they could not do it every round whereas I could; and against their melee type stuff I had the better advantage.

Your DM must be a pushover. A Sorcerer EK or Warmage EK can easily blast away a Fighter with 8D6 or 12D6 Scorching Rays (depending on level). Better yet, make them Empowered Scorching Rays on any round in which the Fighter cannot do a full round melee attack. Combine that with Tumbling (which my EKs would take) and you limit the Fighter to one attack per round unless he pulls out a Bow (in which case he tends to do less damage per attack).

Throw Greater Invisibility (for the Sorcerer / EK) into the mix and the Fighter is toast.

To another one of my points and others above; if your going to rely on casting WHY go to fighter type route at all? It is a waste. For example - A war mage is better than any EK in my book. So is a martially focused Sorcerer, wizard, heck even a bard!!!!

Because sometimes, a player likes to fight and cast arcane spells. A martially focused Sorcerer or Wizard will not have the BAB or hit points to do that as well as an EK and any buffing they can do, the EK can do as well (since buff spells tend to be lower level spells).

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Nonsense. Warmages are pathetic as melee/arcane. What warmages are good at is straight-up arcane blasting. (If you took a sorcerer and selected nearly all direct damage spells at all levels, what you'd end up with would be a weaker warmage without the armor proficiencies or bonus feats).

The problem with Warmage is that it lacks most of the spells that have good synergy with weapon proficiencies and melee combat. Enlarge person, shield, blink, greater magic weapon, greater/improved blink, iron body, mirror image, greater invisibility, polymorph, alter self, dragonskin, brilliant blade, brilliant aura, displacement, fires of purity, contingency (though they can get it with advanced learning), wraithstrike (though any DM would be silly to allow it so it's probably not fair to include this on the Eldritch Knight side of things), and shapechange. It also lacks anything resembling a decent BAB which, while not much of a disadvantage when using ranged touch attacks, is crippling for a character who has to hit stuff with physical weapons. (When combined with the reduced utility of Power Attack, a warmage gets fewer attacks that hit less often and for less damage than an Eldritch Knight).

While I've seen full spellcasting builds that purport to be skilled melee combatants (usually using polymorph and tenser's transformation), they seem more gimicky and less reliable than an Eldritch Knight. (Not to mention, they have to transition into that role at certain levels rather than being able to fill the same role from level 2-20 like an Eldritch Knight).

MY point is that with all the stuff out there as options for a melee/arcane; EK is inferior to most combinations that could be had. Warmages are an example of this.

 

[Fighter1]

The difference between a crit and the Channel Spell ability is as follows:

1) You cannot just decide to do a crit this round. It only happens infrequently when the dice allow for it.

2) You cannot have a weapon prepared ahead of time to do 50+ damage like you can with Channel Spell. You can put Scorching Ray into the weapon and it stays that way for 8 hours.

1) Very true; but then again if one were to (not that I am going to or asking you to at all) if one were to figure out the frequency of your ability to due this vs. the frequency of a critical…I world bet WoTC did.

2) And again – making my point – a huge chunk of this is coming from the Spell sword class; which ahs nothing to do with EK. Spellsword is a “Fighter with Arcane Abilities” not a balanced caster/fighter as the originator of this thread and many others here alluded to. You could do that with or without an EK – with EK have no relevance on it - or do it better as a war mage most likely.

The math for this particular character is:

18 Strength character with +1 Maul does 2D8 + 7 averages 16 points (Monkey Grip feat)

Ok right here ya got me – this is a big opinionated difference; I think monkey grip is insanely overpowered and do not allow it at all as a DM and would never take it myself as a PC (and would whine all day if a fellow PC was allowed to and did!). Thus, for this portion there is no resolution…you have it I would never have it – can’t compare our opinions on this one.

2 Scorching Rays with Channel Spell averages 28 points of damage

So, this is only 44 points of damage on average if he does not critical, 88 points of damage if he does.

This does not include his Fist of Stone spell (+4 more damage), his Enlarge spell (+5.5 more damage stronger and larger weaopn, +6.5 if combined with Fist of Stone), his Arcane Strike feat (+1D4 to +3D4 depending) and his Power Attack feat (upwards of 12 more damage).

Full out he can average 74 points of damage, 148 on a critical and still be +10 to hit with this mega-attack.

But, if he needs to do serious damage and does not have time to prep with spells,…

And that my friend is another primary point – one does not always have the time to prep spells (except with the spellsword portion). Most of the time your PC would have to cast for a few rounds to get it all ready while to combat ensued.

…he can do an attack in a single round for 2D8 + 7 (Maul) + 8D6 (Channel Spell Scorching Ray) + 3D4 (Arcane Strike third level spell) for an average of 51.5 points of damage and he will be at +14 to hit. If he misses the attack, he loses the Arcane Strike (unless he gets a successful AoO later in the round), but the main 44 point damage Channel Spell attack lasts until he does hit.

Again the Spellsword…not the EK.

When his caster level gets to 11, his Channel Spell Scorching Ray will go from 8D6 to 12D6.

Plus, he can throw Haste into the mix.

The first part here is the benefit of the Spellsword not the EK; the later fits into my point about prep time.

Granted, he can only do this a few times per day. But then again, when you absolutely postively have to do serious damage to a single opponent, would you prefer to be doing 25 points like the Power Attacking Fighter or 50 points like the Channel Spell Arcane Strike Spellsword?

I see your point – however see this point as well – the party arcane caster who has a higher caster level (from not multiclassing) slams the bad guys with maximized 10d6 fireballs. Scorching rays, whatever then, I, the fighter, pop in and pop in three attacks at 11th level (something your mixes can’t do at 11th level due to lower BAB) and bury the guy(s).

IMO I will take that fighter with the higher BAB, more HP’s and better relevant ability scores (since his do not need to be spread so thin due to multiclassing needs) and more attacks against your multiclassed guy any day of the week. Sure; you’ll get in the big whammy on me next round; but 4 rounds down the road I’ll be doing more damage than you and can keep going for the rest of the day while you can’t.

One is not better than the other - they both have their strengths and weaknesses. But quite simply, in the long haul; multiclass character’s are not better than the single class character’s of each relevant class.

The mix and options chosen can maximize your benefits in a given situation but not all the time. A fighter can fight all the time; all day; your guy can’t keep up with that. However the fighter can’t cast anything; he can’t slam you with a fireball from 20 feet away or slap you upside the head with a scorching ray. Your PC can swing the sword once, hammer somebody, but can’t do it again for a bit (or needs to retreat to recast – or take a bazillion AoO’s). Is the fighter’s longevity on the battlefield better than the Spellswords short term damage dealing? That is an opinion open for debate and depends on the situation at hand. If your party lets your Spellsword move up, hit, pullback then sure he is better there; but can/does that happen all the time??? What about the damage in the rounds he is recasting vs. The rounds the fighter is hacking? (hey that rhymes!) Do they balance out?

But to the thread; you have all valid points about a Spellsword – NOT an Eldritch Knight. The Eldritch Knight can benefit your Spellsword/Fighter with the BAB and caster Level increases; but in and of itself it serves no purpose. You would perhaps be better just getting more levels in Sorcerer or Spellsword.

Your DM must be a pushover.

Sort or personal ain’t it?

A Sorcerer EK or Warmage EK can easily blast away a Fighter with 8D6 or 12D6 Scorching Rays (depending on level). Better yet, make them Empowered Scorching Rays on any round in which the Fighter cannot do a full round melee attack.

So your saying that these things can wax a fighter in a single round? Of course assuming that tactically everything is in the EK’s favor? I got a fighter with an 18 con, +25 to jump and a 24 Str – those things hurt for sure but let me clue ya; so does Heedless Charge combined with Leap Attack. And it hurts more when you have less than D10’s on EACH level. But then again, to be fair, that assumes the fighter would be able to do that the same as you assume the EK could do those castings right off the bat.

Combine that with Tumbling (which my EKs would take) and you limit the Fighter to one attack per round unless he pulls out a Bow (in which case he tends to do less damage per attack).

And this would be cross-class most likely; which limits your ranks (unless you toss in yet another class; but then you lower them there d6’s). And of course it means that he will be wearing lighter armor which means his AC is easier for my Fighter to hack through…not to mention that he gave something up for that Dex to make it all worthwhile; most likely Str & Wisdom and thus either his will saves against other casters is lower or when he does swing that sword it does nto hurt near as much…so then why the fighter part at all???

Point being any can say “oh ya but if…” and have any example beat another. But if you look at real encounters out there; your EK will be at an advantage sometimes; not others; same fro everyone out there. Again my point is that an EK as a caster/fighter is inferior to either individually or many of the other classes out there.

Throw Greater Invisibility (for the Sorcerer / EK) into the mix and the Fighter is toast.

And again – assuming he has the thing ready and waiting…and that the Fighter does not have true seeing or something on him via some device or a quick buff

Because sometimes, a player likes to fight and cast arcane spells. A martially focused Sorcerer or Wizard will not have the BAB or hit points to do that as well as an EK and any buffing they can do, the EK can do as well (since buff spells tend to be lower level spells).

And that was also one of my points that you just made – Character Concept preferences.

 

[Fighter1]

Nonsense. Warmages are pathetic as melee/arcane. What warmages are good at is straight-up arcane blasting. (If you took a sorcerer and selected nearly all direct damage spells at all levels, what you'd end up with would be a weaker warmage without the armor proficiencies or bonus feats).

The problem with Warmage is that it lacks most of the spells that have good synergy with weapon proficiencies and melee combat. Enlarge person, shield, blink, greater magic weapon, greater/improved blink, iron body, mirror image, greater invisibility, polymorph, alter self, dragonskin, brilliant blade, brilliant aura, displacement, fires of purity, contingency (though they can get it with advanced learning), wraithstrike (though any DM would be silly to allow it so it's probably not fair to include this on the Eldritch Knight side of things), and shapechange. It also lacks anything resembling a decent BAB which, while not much of a disadvantage when using ranged touch attacks, is crippling for a character who has to hit stuff with physical weapons. (When combined with the reduced utility of Power Attack, a warmage gets fewer attacks that hit less often and for less damage than an Eldritch Knight).

While I've seen full spellcasting builds that purport to be skilled melee combatants (usually using polymorph and tenser's transformation), they seem more gimicky and less reliable than an Eldritch Knight. (Not to mention, they have to transition into that role at certain levels rather than being able to fill the same role from level 2-20 like an Eldritch Knight).

Never played one - just goign by what I read and people who say it is great. Used as an example is all. Even with the stuff above I still think that for combat it is better than an EK.

 

[mikebr99]

I think so too but it's a nifty thought ...

A better loop hole is being a human, from the Dalelands (FR), and taking the regional feat Militia... which gives you the martial weapons, without taking a single level of fighter.

You are only loosing one caster level now... if your DM allows it, that is...

Mike

 

[green slime]

I dunno that about the Fighter being the only one able to get off three attacks at level 11...

Ftr 1 / Wiz 6 / EK 4 can get off 3 attacks with rapid shot, and with Dex 24, greater magic weapon, a +1 Composite Mighty Longbow of Frost and Corrosion + flame arrow does a fair amount of damage: +16/+16/+11 d8+5+3d6 at range. With three attacks, at least one will hit, for an average damage of 20 damage. Every round.

And that is without Maxing out equipment or spells.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It rather depends upon what you want to do with combat. If in combat you want to shoot ray spells and fireballs, then warmage is a lot better than eldritch knight--that's what a warmage does. If, on the other hand, you want to hurt things with a weapon, I'll give you any level between 1 and 20, 1 minute, 1 round, or no prep, core+builder books only (with or without wraithstrike), against any opponent in the monster manual and an eldritch knight will win hands down. Warmage simply does not have the synergy or the BAB to be any good at weapon based combat.

Never played one - just goign by what I read and people who say it is great. Used as an example is all. Even with the stuff above I still think that for combat it is better than an EK.

 

[Thanee]

I dunno that about the Fighter being the only one able to get off three attacks at level 11...

Ftr 1 / Wiz 6 / EK 4 can get off 3 attacks with rapid shot...

When using Rapid Shot you have to compare to 4 attacks, really.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

IMO I will take that fighter with the higher BAB, more HP’s and better relevant ability scores (since his do not need to be spread so thin due to multiclassing needs) and more attacks against your multiclassed guy any day of the week. Sure; you’ll get in the big whammy on me next round; but 4 rounds down the road I’ll be doing more damage than you and can keep going for the rest of the day while you can’t.

How about this?

Round 1)

11th level Fighter charges in and makes 1 attack.
11th level Ftr/Wiz/EK casts extended Wraithstrike and Polymorph to become an 11-headed Hydra.

Round 2)

11th level Fighter kicks in boots of speed and full attacks with 4 attacks.
11th level Ftr/Wiz/EK charges with 11 (touch) attacks (with full Power Attack).

Round 3)

11th level Fighter full attacks with 4 attacks.
11th level Ftr/Wiz/EK full attacks with 11 attacks.



One 3rd and one 4th level slot used (for very powerful spells, tho). There are quite a few left still.

Bye
Thanee