Eldritch Knight strategies

The future EK looses nothing significant by waiting a further level (to 6th) before switching.

The 6th level grants the Wizard another +1 BAB, +1 on all saves, and more spells.
The 6th level gives the Sorcerer all the above, and a new spell level (3rd).

Sounds like a pretty good trade for what just amounts to a few hit points and the ability to use martial weapons.

I still prefer the bow-based EK myself, but we never saw the wraithstrike spell. Lack of Armoured spell-casting isn't really a problem, and you get the full benefit of your full-BAB and pre-conflict spells right from the get-go.
 

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Elder-Basilisk said:
With that ability, you still have three basic choices:
A. buff and attack with weapons
B. don't buff and attack with weapons anyway
C. don't bother attacking with weapons.

Option B is a recipe for disaster. Wizards--even multiclass ones--simply aren't good enough at combat to do well without using the abilities they gave up about half their HD based hit points and at least three points of BAB to get.

Actually, option B will let the OP do what he wants. You can attack with a weapon and cast a combat spell. While the weapon attack may miss, it is still nearly free (You give up more than one attack and have to take a full-round action). But if you have the right weapons (say brillant energy) or are going for a trip on the attack, the melee attack can be pretty nice. Worth doing? I doubt it. But it does let you do the "hit with weapon, hit with spell" thing which the OP wants. And while it may not be an optimal build, it really isn't that bad.

Just one level lets you toss in a true-strike melee attack in a round. If you've got power attack and a two-handed weapon (say staff) you could be doing some scary things...
 

But note that even in the list of things you provide, every item either involves or recommends some kind of buffing, spellcasting, or sacrifice of spellcasting ability.

-Brilliant energy: helps you hit against armored foes, but hitting by itself is not very significant unless you do an appreciable amount of damage. In order to do good damage, you want at least a mediocre strength and you probably want to put greater magic weapon on whatever weapon you are using. Considering the cost of brilliant energy (and its limited range of targets) you may want to get it via spell (brilliant blade or brilliant aura) as well. Power Attack helps a lot, but again, that precludes dumping strength and requires feats that are geared towards melee combat.

-Trip: is a very useful combat manuever and the Improved Trip feat works well for fighter/wizards since they aren't making a sacrifice to come up with the prerequisite Int. However, in order to be effective, you need a good strength and it helps a lot to use buffs like enlarge person. (Though debuffs like ray of enfeeblement and/or enervation can be substituted). Again, this precludes dumping strength and requires feats geared towards melee combat to be useful.

-True Strike+Power Attack: Especially with havoc mage, this is a very good option (though it suffers a lot if wraithstrike is available since wraithstrike gives most of the benefits of true strike, gives them for a full attack instead of a single attack, and doesn't require giving up a level of spellcasting or another point of base attack to pull off. However, this is buffing and it still requires a mediocre strength and feats geared toward melee combat in order to be effective.

And, of course, if buffing is out of the question entirely, the character is going to get smeared as soon as the enemy goes. Standing on the front lines without false life, displacement, greater blink, blink, greater invisibility, alter self, dragonskin, or even mage armor/shield is putting out a sign for your enemies saying: Hey, you don't need wraithstrike or true strike or anything else; just power attack me to death right now.

I'm not claiming that an eldritch knight can't be effective--or that he can't be effective with no rounds of prep (at least at mid-high levels--quickened spells, contingencies, and long-duration spells help a lot). But an eldritch knight who doesn't plan to use spells to help himself out in melee and does plan to rely upon spells for the vast majority of his offense is ignoring all of the strengths of the class and focussing on areas where the class actually makes him weaker.

brehobit said:
Actually, option B will let the OP do what he wants. You can attack with a weapon and cast a combat spell. While the weapon attack may miss, it is still nearly free (You give up more than one attack and have to take a full-round action). But if you have the right weapons (say brillant energy) or are going for a trip on the attack, the melee attack can be pretty nice. Worth doing? I doubt it. But it does let you do the "hit with weapon, hit with spell" thing which the OP wants. And while it may not be an optimal build, it really isn't that bad.

Just one level lets you toss in a true-strike melee attack in a round. If you've got power attack and a two-handed weapon (say staff) you could be doing some scary things...
 

Alright ... a different way to play an EK:
-Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Spiked Chain (although I prefer the OA chain which can be reach or a double weapon as you wish, just made a gnome with one end +1 flaming, and the other +1 frost)
-Combat Reflexes
-Stand Still
This allows you to get up close with your foe, and hold them off while you hit them with a reach weapon, or cast from an unthreatened square. Also if you dip into the Hexblade (complete warrior) for the martial weapon proficiency, you get some nice class abilities (HEX! and mettle if you want to wait till lvl 3). ... hmm. I should try making a dwarven hexblade ...

However, it sounds like you already have an Eldritch Knight. Why don't you post your character and we can give adice on how to go from there ...
 

If you're making a character from scratch to be an EK, I'm not sure if this works (See this thread), but ...

Start with a Tiefling Wizard or an Aasimar Sorcerer. At 3rd level pay 3,000 xp to reduce your LA to +0 (See Unearthed Arcana optional rules). At 6th level enter the Eldritch Knight Prestige class (The outsider type takes care of the martial weapon proficiency prereq). At level 20, you've got full caster level if you want.

If there's any ECL+0 outsiders you can skip the buying off the LA. If your DM doesn't allow buying off the LA, it's up to you whether you'd rather go this route or play another race and take a level of fighter.
 

I believe, that the proficiencies are tied to racial HD, which Aasimar and Tiefling do not have.

The listing in the MM ('... as characters') also does not include them, but does include weapon proficiencies for those who got racial HD (i.e. Ogre).

Bye
Thanee
 


KarinsDad said:
I disagree. I have a Fighter / Sorcerer / Spellsword soon to be EK in my group and at 10th level, he could dish out 50+ points of damage with a single blow. That typically either takes out (or injuries sufficiently to have them retreat) most non-Fighter types with one shot at that level. He couldn't do it all day, but he could do it a few times per day when necessary.

50+? I would like to see the math on that for a 10th level PC; higher sure…but at 10th level with the levels you must have with those classes? I am not so sure – leaving room for the fact I may be wrong. If he “can” do that - so can my Fighter with a crit using power attack alone or mixed with any other sorts of feats that increase damage.

Not to mention that if you read my whole post you would see that I pointed out that a “fighter leaning” multi-class can even things out; with fighter and spell sword in your mix her you just made my point:

Your PC can dish out more damage a few times; a full blown fighter can dish out, on average less, but do it every round of every day without stopping. One may or may not be better than the other – it depends on the situation today, which will be different tomorrow, but again you just made one of my points.



KarinsDad said:
Just the ability to cast Haste typically makes an EK a better Fighter than most same level Fighters.

Haste lasts 5 rounds at the lowest level; that is one extra attack per round – that versus the plethora of feats a fighter can take that directly, indirectly, inadvertently or not that counter this. Combat Expertise, feats that cause more damage (out damage the hasted guy), karmioc strike, dodge, and just a plain better BAB and AC.

KarinsDad said:
The ability of EKs to spike their damage and their AC and their hit points allows them to be better Fighters than Fighters. IMO.

But at what cost? Every spell you choose means there are those you can’t, when your spells wear off??? Most feats work all the time; every time. I have battled EK types before; they never won. They hurt my PC; near the edge of death; but never won. Why? Because whilst they blasted my PC with a spell or whatever they could not do it every round whereas I could; and against their melee type stuff I had the better advantage.

To another one of my points and others above; if your going to rely on casting WHY go to fighter type route at all? It is a waste. For example - A war mage is better than any EK in my book. So is a martially focused Sorcerer, wizard, heck even a bard!!!!


KarinsDad said:
But, the original poster is looking for non-buff EK concepts.

Yup – and to that point – ya can’t beat divine magic for buffing on a level by level basis. So why bother with the EK? Take another option
 

Votan said:
From a pure mechanics point of view, if I want an arcane caster who will enter into combat I start looking at the cleric. Sure, the guy is technically a divine caster but, as the servant of a god of magic, you can get a fair bit of the flavor. You can pick domains that complement this concept. The Fighter/Wizard/EK is going to do better on skills but you have 2 domain abilities vs. his 2 bonus feats. Also you can take a prestige class to gain access to more weapons without losing casting ability if you have the compelte series.

The design varies depending on how much material you have (core looks a lot like war + magic as domains) but, as options expand, so does the ability of this character to be competitive.

That is the real competitor to an Eldritch Knight . . .

Magic domain - in my groupwe have a cleric that has taht domain; it makes for a NASTY cleric indeed! He can cast up to...I think it is 4th elvel arcane spells.

MY point is that with all the stuff out there as options for a melee/arcane; EK is inferior to most combinations that could be had. Warmages are an example of this.
 

It occurs to me that the OP might really be looking for the Warmage. You get the nice imagery of a mage in armor with somewhat interesting weapons (simple weapon proficiency), you get a complete collection of rays and other range touch spells, and if you pick some non-standard feats (point blank, precise shot, ranged spell specialist, extra edge), then you can be "skilled and trained with rays". Your BAB is still garbage, but as it has been pointed out, hitting with ranged touch isn't that hard.
 

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