Eldritch Knight strategies

[KarinsDad]

If channeling scorching ray do you need to make a seperate ranged attack roll? and if a spell allows save, does it still do so?

The spell automatically affects the creature next successfully attacked. Its saving throws and spell resistance apply as normal.


I house ruled that Channeling a spell is the same in all ways as casting a normal spell except for the casting time and the fact that you can both Channel and attack in the same round. This forces the Spellsword to either Concentrate to put the spell into the weapon, or get AoOed (or do it out of threatened squares). And, it requires that he supply components as well, so opponents can make Spellcraft rolls to figure out what he channeled, he cannot Channel Verbal spells in a Silence spell, he needs one hand free, etc. Not a biggy since it rarely affects the game, but I did not think that you should throw out all of the spell casting rules AND be able to both cast a spell and attack in the same round. I considered that too potent for a special ability.

 

[Cabral]

Well, it's a spell-like ability that requires a move-equivelant action. (D'oh forgot that's a book I actually have) Although the action is changed, it still provokes an attack of opportunity and costly material components and XP must still be provided. I'm not sure about other material components or other components. I don't see why a normal spellcraft check would not allow you to identify the spell-like ability as it's being used. Although I suppose you could argue that a successful check allows you to identify that he is channelling a spell, not what spell he is channelling. So, your house rule isn't that big of a change from the standard rules.

Note: Casting Defensively and the Combat Casting feat both apply to spells and spell-like abilities.

 

[Thanee]

So many times in this thread people talk about self-buffing – if you want to do that why the heck be an EK or even an Arcane caster? Clerics are far better at buffing than anyone else AND you get a better BAB with Clerics as well as the ability to wear armor (both of which compliment your Fighter side).

Well, the OP does not want to use buff spells... and maybe not even use weapons.

At least that's what I take out of the first post.

As others pointed out above; the only way to truly maximize an EK is by being a ranged combatant. (but that max is still inferior IMO).

The Eldritch Knight is absolutely not an inferior melee combatant. In fact, it can be a rather powerful class, which can easily hold its own next to a true fighter with just a few buff spells. But that's not really the point of this thread.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Kobold Stew]

Thanks for all the insights so far.

In answer to the implied question in Thanee's post (above):

I'm not opposed to using weapons; in fact, I want to. But my suspicion is (and this thread is doing a lot to confirm it) that there are very few options once you start pursuing the EK. I see how to make one effective in combat; I just don't see two ways of doing so.

I'd like to build an EK Barbarian Sorcerer, for instance, or a Paladin Sorc--but I see so very few options in terms of how such a character could be effective in combat beyond the buff-spells or polymorph.

The EK is not optimized for ray spells; but the image of the fighter/magic user that exists in my head (cultivated from various things I've read and fond memories of first edition) doesn't work.

So I am looking for new paradigms.

 

[Thanee]

The buff-spells really cannot be neglected, they are pretty much a necessity.

But beyond that, there are a few ways to approach things differently, I think. You can still use offensive spells coupled with weapon attacks, depening on the situation, and battlefield control spells to make things more manageable.

With a fairly new (EK) character, I want to use Telekinesis with Extraordinary Concentration combined with weapon attacks. I'll see how this works out in practice.

But if you don't want to use buff spells, then you better don't use the Eldritch Knight.

Bye
Thanee

 

[brehobit]

The EK is not optimized for ray spells; but the image of the fighter/magic user that exists in my head (cultivated from various things I've read and fond memories of first edition) doesn't work.

So I am looking for new paradigms.

Or perhaps a new class? A Havoc mage (I think I have that right) from the MH might do what you want. They can cast a spell and attack in the same round. Really handy actually.

Mark

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Point 1: The only 9th level eldritch knight who can cast 3 empowered scorching rays in one day has an int of 18+ and is specialized in evocation. If you want an apples to apples comparison of an eldritch knight ray specialist to a straight wizard, of course you are going to compare the eldritch knight to a wizard who is actually (gasp) specialized in casting ray spells in the same way. That's not skewing the comparison. It's making it as reasonable as possible.

Point 2: Int 20 is not unusually high for a 9th level wizard. That's a 16 starting Int plus stat bumps at 4th and 8th level and a headband of Intellect +2. Creating a wizard at 9th or 10th level, an Int as high as 26 is not out of the question (sun elf or gray elf with a +4 headband of intellect (easily within the assumed gp value of a 10th level player character) and a starting int of 18 before racial bonuses). This is not a super wizard. It's a pretty standard wizard.

Point 3: The alternate use of maximize and empower spell is simply a convenient tool to compare (primarily) single target damage spells of different spell levels. It doesn't imply that these are actual characters. However, if you want a quantifiable comparison, you need to use some guidelines. Comparing scorching ray to ray of exhaustion is something that every wizard who prepares and casts spells has to do (a wizard with both in his spellbook could, for instance prep scorching ray in a 3rd level slot instead of ray of exaustion) but it isn't easily quantifiable. Even slightly more similar spells like fire orb and enervation don't exactly lend themselves to good comparisons. (For instance, at 10th level, fire orb stacks up to empowered scorching ray a lot better than it does at either 7th or 11th level).

Point 4. If it is a choice between "one maximized scorching ray and one empowered scorching ray" then A. the wizards are not really ray specialists, packing only one high level spell that falls into their specialty, B. you need to compare the difference between an empowered fireball that the wiz 9 can cast and the ice storm (or ordinary fireball or blast of flame) that the eldritch knight can cast with his other high level slot.

Point 5. An eldritch knight can not simply "kick butt with melee combat when he runs out of spells" as you contend. An eldritch knight such as the ones that have been suggested in this thread who treats strength as a dump stat and/or otherwise has the same stats and feats as a straight caster focussed on rays is nearly as much of a liability in melee combat as a straight caster would be. Without strength or spells, he will not do good damage. Without defensive spells or armor (which affects the spells he can cast or requires a one-level dip into spellsword for a mithral chain shirt), he will not have a survivable AC. And, between wizard and eldritch knight levels, he is unlikely to have more hit points than a typical combat rogue. Don't misunderstand. Eldritch Knights CAN and do kick butt in melee combat. But the ones who do have different stat and feat selections than straight casters, and they choose spells that help them do so.

Only a Specialized Evocation 9th level Wizard with an Int of 20 or higher can have 3 5th level spells. Plus, your super Wizard took two damage boosting feats: Maximize and Empower.

So, you are skewing this quite a bit.

Most 9th level Wizards are not Evocation specialists, nor would they waste two feats on damage boosting that early. It only makes sense to take both of these when you can actually use both of them and the earliest for that is 12th level.

So, what you typically have is a Wizard with a max of 2 Maximized Scorching Rays versus an EK with typically a max of 2 Empowered Scorching Rays (and this is even more possible since the extra spell there only requires an 18 Int instead of 20).

Additionally, most Wizards would not stack their highest level spell with 2 or 3 same metamagic versions of the same spell. So, it tends to be (typically) maybe one Maximized Scorching Ray versus one Empowered Scorching Ray.

6 points of damage more in a single round. Not that big of a difference. Not when you consider that the EK can go in and kick butt with melee combat when he runs out of spells. Most 9th level Wizards run out of spells fairly quick if they have 2 or more combats in a given day.

A more reasonable comparison is that the 9th level Wizard has the same 4th level Empowered Scorching Ray spells plus 1 to 3 5th level spells plus another 4th level spell.

This last bit is really quite likely. Most 9th level wizards will pack the same empowered scorching ray as the eldritch knight does. However, when you ask the question: what can I do to be a better ray specialist: take fighter and eldritch knight levels or stay a wizard (or sorcerer) 9 and simply prep more and better ray spells, the comparison makes it quite obvious: stay a single-classed wizard and take more and better ray spells. If the skill an ordinary wizard has with ray spells is not satisfactory, you're far better off just retooling your spell and feat selection than multiclassing into eldritch knight.

Btw, nobody is arguing that the straight Wizard doesn't have more spell power. But, you are cavalierly dismissing the EK as non-viable and that is just inaccurate.

There's nothing cavalier about the conclusion: an eldritch knight who does not plan to use his melee or ranged weapon ability on a regular basis is simply an ordinary wizard with fewer and lower level spells. An eldritch knight who thinks that having weapon proficiencies and BAB makes him a competent fighter no matter what his stat or feat choices are is deluded. An eldritch fighter who thinks that he can perform well in ranged or melee combat without using some magic to do so is also deluded. If a 9th level eldritch knight wants to play (or fill in) the role of a fighter or barbarian 9, he's going to need to use his magic to make up for the lack of rage, weapon specialization, smite evil, ten points of armor, several points of strength, and three points of base attack bonus. That doesn't need to be (and shouldn't be) the exclusive focus of his spells, but if he doesn't devote stats, feats, spells, and treasure to that role, he's a dead man walking if he ever tries to step into it.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It's a good power, but the havoc mage is even worse for a character who doesn't want to buff and fight than eldritch knight is. You lose yet another caster level (and, given that it's a 5-level prestige class, you're going to either have to return to wizard which nerfs any combat ability you might get out of havoc mage or go with spellsword, eldritch knight, phantom dragoon, etc which all cost even more spellcasting ability). You gain an ability that only works when you attack.

With that ability, you still have three basic choices:
A. buff and attack with weapons
B. don't buff and attack with weapons anyway
C. don't bother attacking with weapons.

Option A is what the OP apparently wants to avoid (though it may be that he just wants to avoid the "spend three rounds buffing and find that the battle is over before he can do anything" trap or doesn't want to use particular buffs (like polymorph, blink, or wraithstrike) which are other questions entirely).

Option B is a recipe for disaster. Wizards--even multiclass ones--simply aren't good enough at combat to do well without using the abilities they gave up about half their HD based hit points and at least three points of BAB to get.

Option C works just fine, but then what you get out of havoc mage is just as counterproductive as what you get out of eldritch knight. If you don't want to attack with weapons (except maybe in the same situations that a single class wizard would bust out his quarterstaff), then you shouldn't be taking classes that sacrifice what you want to do (cast spells) to make you better at something you don't want to do (use weapons).

Or perhaps a new class? A Havoc mage (I think I have that right) from the MH might do what you want. They can cast a spell and attack in the same round. Really handy actually.

Mark

 

[Thanee]

Point 1: The only 9th level eldritch knight who can cast 3 empowered scorching rays in one day has an int of 18+ and is specialized in evocation.

Or a Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight with the Militia feat, and Cha 12+.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Votan]

Or a Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight with the Militia feat, and Cha 12+.

Bye
Thanee

It's a good idea but this is a hard road. In particular, you are 6th level before you have anythign but a d4 for hitpoints and then you go up to a d6. Still, losing only a single level of spellcasting is extremely tempting. To be honest, if I was going to try this I'd be combining militia as a feat with human paragon --> Human Paragon 1/Socerer 1/Human Paragon 2-3/Sorcerer 2-3/Eldritch Knight 1+

You'd get the feat back, get a single CHA based class skill for the sorcerer (which is nice for synergy), you have the same BAB but d8 hit points for 3 of 6 levels and a +2 to one stat which helps compensate for the need for a broad range of stats.