Level Up (A5E) Eldritch Scythe vs Pact Weapon Invocations. What is the point.

[Steampunkette]

Hold up, Thirsting Blade sese you can attack twice with your pact weapon specifically, so if you don’t make the first attack spusificly with the pact blade you can’t make the second cus its a second attack specifically with the pact weapon right?

It has been clarified, later, that Warlocks that use pact of the blade and eldritch scythe are choosing between the two on a specific turn.

Because Eldritch Scythe is a melee -spell- attack, rather than a melee -weapon- attack, you cannot make attacks with it on the same turn you use your pact weapon to make attacks.

One or the Other.

 

[thuter]

Quoting myself from the other topic about Pact of the Blade:

There is a way of utilizing both Thirsting Blade (extra attack with pact weapon) and Extra Blast (more Eldritch Scythe attacks), but it doesn't actually use your pact weapon. You do this by taking a level of Marshal, and with your two attacks you give one to your ally (preferably one with scaling cantrips or sneak attack), and use the other to Eldritch Scythe.

Not ideal, but strong action economy allowing for full-size Eldritch Scythe as well as some benefit from the otherwise wasted multi-attack. Depending on the ally, it becomes very likely that you out-damage double attacking with the pact weapon, but you need one for it to work so the investment is not wasted.

 

[WanderingMystic]

Quoting myself from the other topic about Pact of the Blade:



Not ideal, but strong action economy allowing for full-size Eldritch Scythe as well as some benefit from the otherwise wasted multi-attack. Depending on the ally, it becomes very likely that you out-damage double attacking with the pact weapon, but you need one for it to work so the investment is not wasted.

Fairly certain that that doesn't work. You only get the second attack with your pack weapon if you make the first attack with your pack weapon

 

[thuter]

Fairly certain that that doesn't work. You only get the second attack with your pack weapon if you make the first attack with your pack weapon

What makes you say so?

Thirsting Blade: You can attack with your pact weapon twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Commanding Presence: When you take the Attack action, you can forgo making one attack to allow a friendly creature within range of your Commanding Presence to make an attack instead.
Eldritch Scythe: Once per turn when you would make a melee weapon attack as part of the Attack action or an opportunity attack, you can instead make a melee spell attack, lashing out with an ephemeral and unearthly blade.

 

[WanderingMystic]

What makes you say so?

Thirsting Blade: You can attack with your pact weapon twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Commanding Presence: When you take the Attack action, you can forgo making one attack to allow a friendly creature within range of your Commanding Presence to make an attack instead.
Eldritch Scythe: Once per turn when you would make a melee weapon attack as part of the Attack action or an opportunity attack, you can instead make a melee spell attack, lashing out with an ephemeral and unearthly blade.

You are not making an attack with your pact weapon so I don't think it applies.

 

[thuter]

No I really don't think that is how it should be ruled. If so, would the Extra Attack feature on the Marshal not allow him to make an additional attack after using Commanding Presence either?

"Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
But you are not attacking when you use Commanding Presence, so in your reading you would not get the second one either...

I read it as follows: I get two attacks with my pact weapon. I forgo one for Commanding Presence, the other for Eldritch Scythe.

 

[WanderingMystic]

I can see where you are coming from and it makes sense if I had a player who wanted to do that I would let them however to me I read it as follows:
If you attack with your pact weapon when you take the attack action you can make two attacks.(one of those could be used as commanding presence or something similar.

It is one of the reasons I wish Thirsting blade worked a bit differently, it is not an extra attack persay but it also doesn't stack with extra attacks . If it was "while welding your pact weapon you act as if you have the extra attacks feature" then it would be fine but it is not enough to just weild the weapon you have to attack with it.

 

[thuter]

It is one of the reasons I wish Thirsting blade worked a bit differently, it is not an extra attack persay but it also doesn't stack with extra attacks.

Sure, but the only difference between Thirsting Blade and Extra Attack are the words "with your pact weapon", which I would interpret as exactly that: Extra attack, but only with the pact weapon.

If you attack with your pact weapon when you take the attack action you can make two attacks.(one of those could be used as commanding presence or something similar.

So there is a problem when I forgo both, but not if I forgo one of the attacks? I don't see why that would be the case (Other than of course that it feels like you cheat Extra Blast's exception.)

 

[Tessarael]

So you can have your pact weapon and Thirsting Blade to get Extra Attack, use Eldritch Scythe for your first attack (And make 2 Eldritch Scythe attacks with that one attack) and then use Extra Attack to hit them with your pact weapon.

Extra Blast specifies, "When you use Eldritch Ray, Eldritch Scythe, or Eldritch Whip as part of your action on your turn, as long as you make no weapon attacks you can attack twice instead of once. At 11th level you can make three attacks, and at 17th level you can make four attacks. In addition, your Eldritch Disturbance’s damage increases by 1d10 at 5th level, and again at 11th level and 17th level." So you can only make one Eldritch Scythe attack and one attack with your pact weapon at the same time; though you could still use two-weapon fighting as well to make two additional bonus attacks with your off-hand at level 5+ with Extra Attack.

 

[Tessarael]

With Thirsting Blade at 5th level, your options are:

1. Eldritch Blast twice with Eldritch Ray, Eldritch Scythe, or Eldritch Whip; or 2d10 damage with one Eldritch Disturbance.
2. Attack twice with your melee weapon.
3. Eldritch Blast once, and attack once with your melee weapon.

For option 1, with Eldritch Scythe and Agonizing Blast, with Warlock spellcasting ability modifier is +4, and if you cast Hex as a bonus action, the damage you do assuming that you hit, but not critically, is (d8 + 4 WIS + 1 + d6 Hex) x2 = 26.0 average to the primary target and (d8 + 4 WIS + 1) x2 / 2 = 9.5 on average to a second target within reach.

For option 2, let's assume your Warlock spellcasting ability modifier is +4, and that you cast Hex as a bonus action. If your melee weapon is say a greatsword+1, and you have Lifedrinker, using it for both attacks, you do 2x(2d6 + 1 magic item bonus + 4 modifier + 4 Lifedrinker + d6 Hex) = 39 average damage, assuming that you hit but not critically.

For option 3, it is midway between 1 and 2.

To maximize melee damage against a single target, hitting them with your pact weapon, thirsting blade, and and lifedrinker is the way to go (option 2). If you want to push them around on the battlefield with say Repelling Blast, then option 3 is best - hit them once with the melee weapon, then push them 10' back. Option 1 doesn't do more damage until level 11+.

If you really want to maximize your melee damage output, you dual wield, and on the second round you can apply the Hex d6 bonus damage to all four attacks - two with your main hand, and two with your off-hand, per the A5E two-weapon fighting rule, "If you have the Extra Attack feature, you can use your bonus action to make two attacks with the weapon in your off-hand."

Note that Hex is listed as a Warlock spell in Spells | Level Up, even though it is not in the Adventurer's Guide. If your DM permits Spirit Shroud from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, that scales up even better for damage output than Hex. Spirit Shroud does +2d8 damage to a target within 10', when you cast it as a 5th level spell, at Warlock level 9+.

Until character level 17, Eldritch Blast doesn't do more average damage per round than when you are using Polearm Savant with a polearm for 3 attacks, or two-weapon fighting for 4 attacks. However, you are missing out on all the fun stuff that you can do with Eldritch Blast such as 10' push/pull, grapple, or paralyze, if you take the right Eldritch Invocations.

In my opinion, Eldritch Scythe may be better used with say an Imp familiar and Pact of the Chain at lower levels, which states, "When you use Eldritch Scythe, you can choose to deliver the attack through your familiar as though you had cast a spell with a range of Touch." (Your familiar can get killed off pretty quickly at higher levels, if you send it out to attack in that fashion.) Other than that, I think that Eldritch Ray is a better choice for your Eldritch Blast; but Eldritch Scythe may well be worth taking with Versatile Blast at some point.