Eldritch Theurge

[satori01]

That's a good point about the reserve feats. A Wizard can have an unlimited supply of blasts through those feats that are equivalent in power to the Eldritch Blast of a same level Warlock. These feats seem to really take away the entire point of playing a Warlock.

Except, as I think was shown in the recent "How do Warlocks play" thread, those that commonly thought that Warlocks were a fun and strong class, were those that observed Warlock play that depended upon the Eldritch Blast as the option of last resort not first.

A single class Warlock, with a Warlock's Scepter, the amulet that adds bonus dice to the Eldritch Blast, and the feats Maximize Spell Like Ability and Quicken Spell Like Ability, and Improved Critical Eldritch Blast will still never match the damage output of a Melee fighting character, or a Spell blasting character due to the limitation of one Eldritch blast per round. A Warlock will have good rolls, and a memorable crit or two, but dealing massive amounts of damage is not their bag.

Dimension Dooring around like Nightcrawler, using any magic item that cross their path, hurting people with their at will Dispel Magic, those are the things that make a Warlock interesting.

An Evoker/Warlock Eldritch Theurge could be a terror in a fight. Likewise on the player side, the DR will help you survive, and Warlock Invocations let you game the system a bit more, and make it easier to suck up the hit from being a Specialist Wizard.

 

[Votan]

Except, as I think was shown in the recent "How do Warlocks play" thread, those that commonly thought that Warlocks were a fun and strong class, were those that observed Warlock play that depended upon the Eldritch Blast as the option of last resort not first.

A single class Warlock, with a Warlock's Scepter, the amulet that adds bonus dice to the Eldritch Blast, and the feats Maximize Spell Like Ability and Quicken Spell Like Ability, and Improved Critical Eldritch Blast will still never match the damage output of a Melee fighting character, or a Spell blasting character due to the limitation of one Eldritch blast per round. A Warlock will have good rolls, and a memorable crit or two, but dealing massive amounts of damage is not their bag.

Dimension Dooring around like Nightcrawler, using any magic item that cross their path, hurting people with their at will Dispel Magic, those are the things that make a Warlock interesting.

An Evoker/Warlock Eldritch Theurge could be a terror in a fight. Likewise on the player side, the DR will help you survive, and Warlock Invocations let you game the system a bit more, and make it easier to suck up the hit from being a Specialist Wizard.

True but slowing access to invocations is rarely a good idea. Multi-classing in a way that delays access to deceive item makes the ability to use items less able. Or, if you take 4 levels of Warlock to get this, you still lag in UMD or you have to spend unfavorable skill point exchanges to build up this ability.

You use the dimension door example. Without this combination of classes, a warlock can do this at level 6 (if he takes it as his first lesser invocation). However, a warlock 3/Evoker 3/Eldritch Theruge 3 gets the same ability at level 9. That is a significant delay. In return you cast 3rd level arcane spells and have slightly more DR. That is a tough trade that polays against your strengths.

It is possible that some "trick" could avoid the investment of 3 wizard or warlock levels but, in general, this can't be assumed.

Since the Eldritch theurge's special abilities are weaker than a generic warlock except for the ability to enhance blasts with spells, this suggests that going with blasts is the point of this class.

This has the same issues that all hybrids have -- you lag at least 3 levels in pinnacle abilities. This means you wait longer for the very useful Dark invocations (19th level instead of 16th).

 

[Quartz]

Does't this depend on what the other characters - especially the other spellcasters - in the party are doing? If the other spellcasters are going to be similarly delayed then there isn't going to be a problem.

 

[Votan]

Does't this depend on what the other characters - especially the other spellcasters - in the party are doing? If the other spellcasters are going to be similarly delayed then there isn't going to be a problem.

Well, yes, to some extent. But the challenges don't change and the effort to overcome them can be much higher the whle party is delayed spellcasters.

Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of delaying progression for good reasons. I just find that hybriding Warlock and Arcane to be less obvious a direction than most as it seems to work against the synergies that could be found.

If it could be done for only one level of Arcane caster then it would have a worthy place but three levels is fairly painful.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Really I think it comes down to looking at what I would gain vs. what I would lose. AT CL 10 (3 Lock/ 3 Wiz / 4 ET) I would lose (compared to a pure Warlock):

3 caster levels
2 Lesser Invocations
1d6 Eldritch Blast damage
Deceive Item
Energy Resistance 5 against two elements

But I would gain:

7 effective levels of Wizard
Summon familiar
Scribe Scroll
+1 DR/Cold Iron
Spellblast

That's not a bad trade at all, IMO. The only painful part is the lower levels where I would suck at everything for a while (only 2d6 EB damage until level 8 and no Fell Flight until level 9, ouch).

I could help make up for my weak blasts with a Chausible of Fell Power, and Greater Spell Penetration and possibly Practiced Spellcaster could help make up for the loss of caster levels. But that's hard for a Warlock who is already feat-starved. The worst part is at level 16, when ET is maxed out at level 10. In the next 4 levels I would be forced to go back to Wizard or Warlock or pick up another prestige class, and that would make my CL in one or both classes fall even farther behind.

 

[Andras]

I haven't played one yet, but I think I will for my next to next character.

I'd take Invocations that supplement my spell casting, like Fell flight, See the Unseen, Serpents Tongue, Flee the Scene!, Void Sense; Hideous Blow looks like it would combine nicely with Grtr Mighty Wallop, and Eldritch Spear extends the range of Spell Weave and Great Blast.

None of those Powers require a save, so I can dump Cha.

 

[Seeten]

I thought it looked good, but, not in a "powerful" way, more in an hey, that is kinda neat way.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Any suggestions on what feats an Eldritch Theurge should take?

 

[Quartz]

Well, yes, to some extent. But the challenges don't change and the effort to overcome them can be much higher the whle party is delayed spellcasters.

Then you have a GM problem. Having delayed spellcasters is only an issue if the adventure mandates a spell that your characters cannot cast, in which case your GM should find some way to work around that issue like giving you a scroll or magic item. Or run you through a lower-level adventure wih increased numbers of opponents.

 

[rgard]

It's much like a Mystic Theurge, except even worse, if possible. You need Cha, Dex, and Int. Practiced Spellcaster will help with SR, but the way Eldritch Blast is written, PS won't increase your blast damage.

The first sentence of the Practiced Spellcaster feat does say 'spells', but we always let it apply to EB blast damage. Rationale was that the EB's save can be boosted by Spell Penetration.

Thanks,
Rich