Elements of Magic Comments

[Great Cthulhu]

Evoke Black (Element) and Evoke Force (including Evoke Area) mirror each other pretty closely on the amount of dice they use, except for the ray versions. Why does Force suddenly follow the Evoke White pattern for rays instead of the Black pattern it normally imitates?

Why were Outsiders exempted from being affected by the Enchantment lists like Charm (Creature) and Dominate (Creature)? I don't see any particular reason that you can't select a Outsider version of these spell lists, and it would cover PC Outsiders as well (tieflings and Asimars, Half-fiends and Half-Celestials).

Why is Summon and Conjure (Elementals) capped at 16 Hit Dice vs the 27 Hit Dice for the Outsider versions? There ARE elementals with greater Hit Dice. Or are these just for the Elemental Spirits?

Is there any penalty for an Outsider or Elemental besides not going home for the Bind spell lists? There are plenty of minor and major demons that would see the Prime Material Plane as a great place to live (and where they arn't in fear for there very existence every moment of every day like they would be in the Abyss). It seems the Bind spell lists need a bigger stick to make the pact they agreed upon have force.

 

[Justice Beloved]

... Any one came up with a way to cast a light spell?? For the life of me I couldn't figure out a way to make it happen, and since I still harbor evil thoughts towards the last mage who said "I just figure we'd have enough torches" I always make sure it's in my books... I'll post the list I've dreamed up, but let me know if you've found a way within the current rules to make shiney things which help avoid sudden spike traps.

 

[Ausderop]

Justice Beloved, how about Create Light Object? You can do all sorts of stuff with it, like form a weapon, not just make a little light.
Some questions: why does the Elemental Spirits file mention Manifest Element and Lesser Telekinesis, while they aren't in the main book? Why do Lightning element spells fail to meet any prerequisites for any non-[Element] spells other than Animate Object? Why do the Class Magic sidebars say Paralysis and Petrification has prerequisites, but the spell list entry itself says nothing? Just some weird stuff. Also, the Red and Grey Mages seem underpowered in comparison to the Green Mage. Same BAB, different spellcasting, Different (but not equal) special abilities)? Weird.

 

[volcivar]

High magic points

Hello,

I enjoyed reading EoM. It has spurred my imagination into creating a few lists out of the many of the PHB spells not represented.

I have at least one misgiving: Spell Points. I think the mage has way too many. 310 at level 20, not counting intelligence. This is around 17 or 18 9th level spells. I cannot imagine how this will effect an otherwise standard DnD senario.

I plan to playtest this in my home game, so I will find out for sure (at least for myself) if this is an excessive amount.

At the first few levels, there is no problem, just at high levels.

Can we get an explanation of why so many points? I understand that Divination and Scry will be using spell points, and that the spells have been restructured so that you need to use a 5th level magic missile to get 5 missiles. But being able to cast 17 9th level magic missile spells doing an average of 100+ damage (possibly more since touch attacks are easy to make) is scarry.

I know I am the only voice of dissent so far, but my complaint is a minor one, and one that I can fix in my home campaign easily enough.

 

[Anon Dragon]

I've been reading and re-reading this product for the past week and I must say I'm impressed.

I did have a question that I've not been able to figure out. Force objects cannot be destroyed except by disintegrate. But disintegrate is not among the spell lists (as far as I can tell). Did I miss something or was it over looked?

 

[Phaedrus]

Why so points?

If you add up the points (310), it's not quite enough to cast 4 of every spell level at 20th level... which is what a wizard can do.

If you remove points, the mage won't be able to cast as many spells per day as a wizard, even if he can cast more high level spells than a wizard. I guess it's pick which one you like.

You could implement a "max spells per level" in addition to the spell points (I've seen a mana system use a stress level counter to limit the number of high level spells per day independent of the total number of spell points available. )

Perhaps the side-effects was an attempt to address this (as extreme side effects can be quite harmful)?

 

[Victim]

The chart for bonus spell points could be extended, as a mage could have a 34 int.

Compel [Creature]: dance refers to a chart for the AC penalties, etc for dancing. These values are not on the above chart.

I don't really like some of the differences in the Abjure [Element] from Protection from [element] spell. Many encounters, like such as battles against dragons or powerful wizards, seem to be designed around the large total coverage that Pro elements provides. If the wimpy 25 HP mage takes 50 damage from a spell attack, then 18 points of resistance doesn't help him as much as, 60 points of protection over the duration.

That reminds me. The larger number of elements would require lots of changes to existing monsters.

The Alter Reality descirption seems to have an error. When the section discusses wishing for a staff of power, the spell duplicated is teleport. However, duplicating a 5th level spell requires a level 6 alter reality, not level 5, so 0-5th Alters would fail and the XP cost should be 3000.

Entrall doesn't list the concentration check DC for casting enchantment spells.

I would have liked to see rules for combination effects - like an evoke are: fire and some other effect with a duration to create something akin to incendiary cloud - and minor talents for mage who can do something, put only poorly, like a master evoker with low level healing.

 

[volcivar]

Phaedrus,

Thanks for the clarification on total spell levels that can be cast. I am afraid I did not think to do that math. Limiting a particular spell level is an interesting idea though.

I did not see that side effects affected the caster (as long a s he is not in the area of effect).

Also I forgot to mention that it seems that at least 1 metamagic feat will be obsoleted by this system: Persistent Spell.

The spell has to be a Personal spell to be made persistent. None of the spells listed are range: Personal. A clever DM can fudge this a little for particular spells, I suppose. It would also be nice for a list of spells (or spell lists) made available to show which ones work with this feat.

Was Haste left out on purpose? Some think this spell is broken. So I thought it may be possible that the author left it out for this reason.

 

[Phaedrus]

Observations and suggestions

There are many others besides Haste "missing."

What if you let Mages learn standard PHB (et al.) spells in lieu of a spell list? They have 80 lists max (at 20th). Perhaps learn only 70 lists and pick 10 "normal" spells? But then how do you cast them? Memorize as a slot like the old system, or throw them in the mix to cast at will (points permitting, of course)?

Going back to the spell points issue allowing too many 9th level spells a day... what if you use the Wizard's spells/day list instead of points? At 20th level you get 4 of each level and that's it. You can trade a higher slot for a lower spell, but you can't trade multiple lower slots to add up to a higher. Too limiting? Too complicated?

Other observations:
How do you Animate Dead? Or create undead?
And with 20 elements to choose from, Outsider immunities to Fire/Cold/etc. become largely useless... just pick other elements to throw at them. Get Biomatter, Crystal and Metal... no one is immune to bludgeon, pierce, AND slash damage...

 

[volcivar]

spell level / day limit

I was thinking a limit based on a stat, maybe Int or Wis. Max spells of any level per day is equal to Int bonus or Wis bonus. This would be fair and could get better as the character gets better. It also forces the DM to more carefully consider Stat boosting items.

I think this is what I wil do, unless a better plan is offered. I also plan on using the point-buy system for stats. This forces a level playing field between players. It also keeps characters with all 18's out of the game.