D&D General elf definition semantic shenanigans

[TwoSix]

i don't see a need to define their mental abilities as totally alien or abberant to still be baseline different from human's to a noticable degree, there are many observable differences in human individuals capacities to process different types of information and it's not like those people are biologically incompatable so why wouldn't the same be true across humans, elves and orcs? even if one is between baselines and the other is between variance around the baseline.

Because those differences can be true in aggregate but not true in an individual. Like, for example, it's scientifically true to say that people of Asian descent have a much higher chance of having the B blood type than people of European descent, just like it's true to say that Europeans have a much higher chance of having the A blood type. But, the majority of people of those descents still don't have those blood types.

Now, let's say in a fantasy world we instead have some gene that gives high agility (a baseline 16 Dex) or high intellect (a baseline 16 Int). It could be totally true that a third of Elves have that high agility gene, and thus have a much higher baseline of Dex (a 16 vs a 10) than other races or cultures. You could even average that out to say that Elves, in aggregate, have a +2 Dex compared to other races. But that "+2 Dex" doesn't have any bearing to any one individual elf.

Most genetic traits are going to have that kind of distribution. It would be extremely rare to have a genetic trait that's extremely common in one population but not expressed at all in other populations (which is what the +2 stat to everyone in the population would be modeling.) But the capacities that are measured by the 6 stats are already hugely variable (thus the 3-18 range), and thus capture the kind of model we would expect to see from traits that can be influenced by a broad swath of genetic factors.

The damning part of the "+x to stat for a race" model is that even looking at the rule as a simulationist, it's a very bad simulation.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Well that's the issue.

Many assume higher Dexterity is inherent to elves. But the same folk usually wont state "how high" or "how much DEX should matter".

Halflings also get a +2 to Dex, so clearly, Elves snd Halflings are the same thing.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Is he?
Is a typical elf one with a 10 in dex, a 14 in dex, a 20in dex?

Yes.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Because those differences can be true in aggregate but not true in an individual. Like, for example, it's scientifically true to say that people of Asian descent have a much higher chance of having the B blood type than people of European descent, just like it's true to say that Europeans have a much higher chance of having the A blood type. But, the majority of people of those descents still don't have those blood types.

Now, let's say in a fantasy world we instead have some gene that gives high agility (a baseline 16 Dex) or high intellect (a baseline 16 Int). It could be totally true that a third of Elves have that high agility gene, and thus have a much higher baseline of Dex (a 16 vs a 10) than other races or cultures. You could even average that out to say that Elves, in aggregate, have a +2 Dex compared to other races. But that "+2 Dex" doesn't have any bearing to any one individual elf.

Most genetic traits are going to have that kind of distribution. It would be extremely rare to have a genetic trait that's extremely common in one population but not expressed at all in other populations (which is what the +2 stat to everyone in the population would be modeling.) But the capacities that are measured by the 6 stats are already hugely variable (thus the 3-18 range), and thus capture the kind of model we would expect to see from traits that can be influenced by a broad swath of genetic factors.

The damning part of the "+x to stat for a race" model is that even looking at the rule as a simulationist, it's a very bad simulation.

but i'm not talking about an elf 'having the dexterity gene' making them dexterous, i'm talking about an elf being fundamentally adapted to being dexterous, it's irrelevant if an individual does or does not have the 'dexterity gene', if they do it just makes them even more dexterous as they're getting increased dexterity from both being an elf and having that specific gene, a greyhound is still going to be more predisposed to be faster than a pitbull who would likewise be predisposed to be stronger, pretty much regardless of if either has the fast or strong gene.

 

[Micah Sweet]

We are not talking about an individuals capacity for certain intelligences, but an entire species. We are saying that there are groups of people who are born with a higher degree of musical ability or capacity for math as a biological truth of their existence.

Science fiction very rarely has this problem, particularly in regards to people up in arms and demanding changes. Why is D&D different?

 

[Scribe]

Science fiction very rarely has this problem, particularly in regards to people up in arms and demanding changes. Why is D&D different?

Different client base + social media = disaster.

 

[Yaarel]

I suppose a variant could be done such that physical stats are affected by heritage, and mental ones by culture or background.

D&D needs a solid set of mechanics when relating to the implications of Size and Carrying Capacity.

After that, D&D can finally put to rest the habit of resorting to reallife racist worldviews, once and for all.

 

[Minigiant]

Science fiction very rarely has this problem, particularly in regards to people up in arms and demanding changes. Why is D&D different?

Fantasy writers use wonder and don't explain things.

Sci Fi writers use science and do.

 

[DarkCrisis]

no humans as we know what we all are.

Meatbags.

 

[Remathilis]

Science fiction very rarely has this problem, particularly in regards to people up in arms and demanding changes. Why is D&D different?

Science fiction isn't immune to this, a lot of analysis has been spent on how humans, near humans, and aliens are handled in sci-fi like Star Trek or Star Wars. Especially on how sci-fi reflects concepts of culture, biology and essentialism. More to the point, there isn't a Sci-fi RPG as big as D&D for which to catch that sort of flack with.