D&D General elf definition semantic shenanigans

[Umbran]

I thought you were not a child?

Mod Note:[/b]
As if you, who are stooping to insulting people, is a pinnacle of mature discussion?

You are done in this thread.

 

[Minigiant]

The assumption is flawed because it assumes +2 Dex is inherent to elven identity. It can't be if you assume one set of stats encompass every possible species, subspecies, and culture of elves in D&D. It's folly to think that. If nothing else, Elves should have floating ASI to mimic the fact there are some many different permutations of elf in the multiverse it's impossible to boil them down to just "quick." You want a world where elves are consistently quick? Get rid of most of those elven subtypes and cultures and focus deeply on a small subset of elven types and cultures from a single setting.

Well that's the issue.

Many assume higher Dexterity is inherent to elves. But the same folk usually wont state "how high" or "how much DEX should matter".

This is usually only a fantasy thing.

In Scifi when you say Space Orcs or Krogan are super strong, the game bans you from running anything but a super strong hulk and everyone accepts it.. Possiblly because in SciFi people admit the aliens are alien.

In fantasy, everyone wants the elves, dwarves, and orcs to be in human ranges.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

But why do you want to encourage your players to make a typical elf? With the new system they can, if they want - they can opt to put +2 into dex. But they're not required. They can be an atypical elf without being penalized for it.

Is he?
Is a typical elf one with a 10 in dex, a 14 in dex, a 20in dex?

 

[Yaarel]

And all of these elves are supposed to be represented by one set of stats in the PHB? I don't think so.

It seems possible to simplify the over hundred types of Elves into a single species.

The playtest already does this by emphasizing the innate magic, and a choice of spells. The choice of spells are like a language or dialect. Each community tends to share a particular assemblage of spells. However, at the same time, individuals should be able to master different spells instead, thus the player character need not conform to the community expectation.

The Elves who inhabit the Astral Plane will tend to find certain spells more useful, the Elves who inhabit the Underdark will tend to find certain other spells more useful, and so on. No community is homogeneous, but there are "prominent" tendencies.

The hundred-plus Elves have their abilities all over the place. Some types of Elf are extremely strong with Strength Improvement. Many − but not all − have high Dexterity. A number of Elf types lack Dexterity. Some are tough. Many have high Intelligence, many have high Wisdom, and many have high Charisma. On balance, the Elf species is mainly a "mental race". Because of the hundred-plus Elves, the single Elf species benefits more than any other species from how the player chooses which two Elf abilities to improve. +2 Strength +1 Dexterity makes a typical Grugach member, +2 Intelligence +1 Charisma makes a typical Sun member. And so on. Any ability is possible for an elven community to privilege.

The rest is backgrounds. Some communities have more Singers, other communities have more Priestesses. Rather than thinking about which ability to privilege, it is more helpful to think about which skills are more useful to a particular community. For example, the Grugach community will have many who are proficient in Survival, Slight (for traps, pits, and snares), Animal Handling, and Stealth. The High community will have many who are proficient in Arcana, History, Nature, and Athletics (to jump and climb). The Eladrin community will have many who are proficient in Arcana and Persuasion. The abilities that improve are mainly a byproduct of the proficiencies that the individual gains.


The only thing that EVERY type of Elf has in common is magic. Double down on the magic flavor. Allow every Elf to cast every spell "innately" without a spell component. This magical affinity is a deep, relevant, and potent flavor.

 

[Minigiant]

Is he?
Is a typical elf one with a 10 in dex, a 14 in dex, a 20in dex?

setting lore, rules mechanics, or game simulation?

 

[Yaarel]

I really don't think "winged elves" or "water-breathing elves" should be elves.

For "winged elves" and "water-breathing elves", I would rewrite the Water Breathing spell to become a slot 1 spell or a cantrip. Then create a Wings cantrip.

In certain Elf communities, it is popular for the members to choose one of these two spells.

 

[Mind of tempest]

so we conclude the elves should read as if the have higher dex why?

 

[Scribe]

so we conclude the elves should read as if the have higher dex why?

Grace, agile, fast, nimble, archers....

 

[Mind of tempest]

Grace, agile, fast, nimble, archers....

archers in real life are all str users or at least the long-bow men all were.

 

[Yaarel]

Athasian elves
The Tarinadal elves of Eberron
The Shadow Elves of Mystara
The Valley Elves of Oerth
Rockseer elves
Star elves of Faerun

The 2024 Elf works well to represent these and any Elf native culture.


CULTURAL MODAL FREQUENCIES
Athasian = +2 (!) Constitution (endless running, desert terrain), +1 Charisma (merchants): prominent Athletics, Survival, Persuasion
Tairnadal = +2 Dexterity (skillful scimitar fighting, archery), +1 Wisdom (druidry, ancestor reverence), Religion, Survival, Nature, Stealth
Shadow = +2 Intelligence (Wizard "shaman"), +1 Strength (Strength Fighter) (not Dex!), Arcana, Survival (underdark), Atheltics
Valley (a mage culture including Elf, Human, and Gnome) = +2 Intelligence, +1 Strength (longsword, medium armor), Arcana, Nature
Rockseer = +2 Strength (melee Fighters), +1 Intelligence (elemental Earth wizardry), Arcana, Nature, Athletics, new spell Stone Walk
Star ≈ nonmartial isolationist Eladrin = +2 Charisma, +1 Intelligence, Arcana, cantrip Light (cast on diadem worn on head)


Note, the listed ability improvements are "common", relating to the "modal" frequencies of certain traits that happen to gain prominence among the individuals within a given Elf culture. Any individual might improve any ability. Not every member of the Shadow culture has +1 Strength. Rather, Shadow is a magic-centered culture where many members also train in the military. Thus this particular culture happens to correlate with a higher frequency of individuals with high Intelligence and high Strength. Similarly the other cultures can be recognized, less so by the individual, and more so by the assemblage of individuals who comprise the group.

Some Elf cultures are also known for ethnic traits such as average height or average complexion (skin colors, hair colors, eye colors).